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Post by fred on Feb 5, 2006 7:42:21 GMT -6
Shan--
If you are referring to the length of the final phase of the battle, i.e., the Custer Hill/ South Skirmish Line phase, then I agree w/ you. If you are referring to the battle from Ford B onward, then we'll have to disagree.
As for the firing heard by whom, coming from where, its loudness, its ferocity, the whole issue is way too complicated for me at this time. This is one of those things I need to spend more time sorting out, sort of like the Gerard business.
I take Herendeen's testimony pretty much at face value, while I discount DeRudio & Gerard. Here's another example of DeRudio's mischief. Supposedly, while he was hiding in the timber & Reno's command was in full flight, the woods afire, dust & smoke rising all over the place, Indians in Reno's rear & the preponderance of the warriors to Reno's right, mayhem reigning, DeRudio spotted Indians pointing up-valley & his eyes took him there & he saw Benteen approach Ford A, you know, the ford where Reno crossed, the ford where there were trees & brush & bushes on the valley side, then veer to his right.... Anyway, this isn't about DeRudio.
I'm sorry, but I'm dead in the water right now about the overall firing & sounds heard by various people. I'll eventually get to it & try to sort it out.
Best regards, Fred.
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Post by shan on Feb 5, 2006 10:27:03 GMT -6
Hello Shatonska, Without someone doing some kind of test to see if it would be possible to hearing fire as far away as LSH from the spot where Herendeen was, we will never know. I'm not really arguing that he heard volley fire from that far away. I think the last volleys he heard were probably from Calhoun, and the scattering fire was from further on down the ridge. I think we either have to dismiss a good many Indian accounts if we are to believe that what Weir and the other saw was only the end of the Calhoun fight, or else accept them, and bite the bullet, the battle was shorter than we think. We all love a good conspiracy theory, and whilst I can understand that a good number of the officers had a vested interest in saying that they had arrived to late, the fight was already over, what about all the troopers that were there? If it wasn't true that the battle was over, how come we didn't have a constant drip drip of tales and innuendoes over the years from scores of men who had seen it differently?
As to why the Indians didn't come at Weir like a dog out of the traps, think about it. Like some fairground boxer, they had taken on two opponents and beaten both comprehensively, they were tired, they were winded, they wanted to enjoy some of the applause, indulge in some of the rewards, then out of the corner of their eye, they saw the man they had beaten first time round. He's come to the door, he's making threatening gestures, shouting a bit, but it's all too obvious that he's not willing to come on and try again. What would you do? You'd turn your back and enjoy yourself for a while, pick up a shirt here, or a watch there, and when you look back over your shoulder what do you see? You see that he's made no move, you've beaten him once, there wasn't that much to him that time, not like this lot. He's no threat, he can wait, there's no hurry.
Okay a bit over dramatic, bit over the top, but you get my drift?
Shan
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Post by shatonska on Feb 5, 2006 11:19:14 GMT -6
shan yes herenden maybe could hear volleys coming from cahloun hill , a farther place than ridges over mt ford but with less covering of the sounds due to the ridges east of the river , checking google heart you can see that it is important the exact position of the wood where herenden was hiding , weir point and ridges south of mt ford are a wall for sounds
soldiers watching from weir point could not be sure of nothing better think that their friends were all alreday dead , accounts say that they saw warriors dressed llike soldiers shooting in the ground like coup de grace and we think of the lsh , but we forget that battle ridge was a mile long full of warriors luting in the cahloun keogh area , maybe soldiers accounts were speaking of cahloun hill not lsh ,
warriors are not clear at all each speak for himself and were so many
just a theory anyway , like tens of others sound tests in the herenden area could explain something , but you have to be sure of where was herenden exact position , because weir point and other ridges east of the river are a true wall for sounds , if the listening view to cahloun hill is free sounds from that position can be heard much better than form nye luce ridges , nearer but covered by weir point and other ridges
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Post by Treasuredude on Feb 5, 2006 11:41:17 GMT -6
From Graham's THE CUSTER MYTH...
Herendeen says--
“The firing down the valley was very heavy. There were about nine volleys at intervals and the intermediate firing was quite rapid. The heavy firing lasted from three-quarters of an hour to an hour and then it died away.”
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 5, 2006 12:06:42 GMT -6
I believe people have done a few sound tests -- but only in still and quiet conditions, which of course can't tell us anything. It would be great if someone could rig up a test using recorded sounds of gunfire, shouting, hoofbeats etc, from the Reno battle area, and then establish what could/could not be heard at Herendeen's position from various points on the Custer field ...
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 6, 2006 7:31:43 GMT -6
Herendeen stated he heard volley firing 1/2 hour AFTER Reno left the timber. Then interspersed firing (Indians responding).
It appears Custer felt threatened enough to order volley firing to hold off warriors either massing or attacking.
As for Weir's Advance . . . once warriors noticed it, they responded quickly and aggressively . . . so much so that the soldiers ran. It was only Godfrey forming skirmish lines that held off the Indians, giving the soldiers time to run and take cover on Reno Hill.
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