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Post by shatonska on Sept 21, 2005 15:37:24 GMT -6
please try to explain keogh defensive position and keogh's fight, it seems absurd so many men died with so few resistance , yes one reason is that it was a sort of retreat fight were soldiers had no time to reload rifles so preferred to use the colts, this explain the few findings but those 80 men killed so few indians , the position is bad for defence but that action is to bad to be true , i cannot understand it !
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Post by El Crab on Sept 21, 2005 23:58:41 GMT -6
They were overwhelmed, many killed heading north. They offered little resistance, much like Reno's retreat.
Custer's battalion may have met its end due to panic, and the majority of the soldiers killed were done so barely resisting. If the right wing fell apart as some believe, it was truly a buffalo hunt.
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Post by elisabeth on Sept 22, 2005 0:55:29 GMT -6
Shatonska, agree totally, it's impossible to understand the currently accepted versions of it. I've got a few ideas about it, but I'm still working on them; hope to get them in shape soon ...
Meanwhile, here's a further puzzle: Lone Bear (in 'Lakota Noon') says the fighting was longest and hardest in that sector. Michno dismisses that, of course -- but Lone Bear was there, and Michno wasn't, so can he be discounted completely?
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Post by shatonska on Sept 22, 2005 5:01:47 GMT -6
Shatonska, agree totally, it's impossible to understand the currently accepted versions of it. I've got a few ideas about it, but I'm still working on them; hope to get them in shape soon ... Meanwhile, here's a further puzzle: Lone Bear (in 'Lakota Noon') says the fighting was longest and hardest in that sector. Michno dismisses that, of course -- but Lone Bear was there, and Michno wasn't, so can he be discounted completely? yes , i recall well , probably the fact that was hand to hand fighting made lone bear say that or maybe he was involved only in that part of the fight el crab following the official explanation , we have 2 companies on a reserve position were they can be hit from east and west from warriors under cover of rdge and draws , thiese soldiers remain there beeing shoot with no possibility of defence , then the stampede north 100 men being overwelmed and killed in few minutes was the situation of us army a similar disaster ? commandres looked like beeing taken from a coffe shop the day before i will never understand why on cahloun all companies didn't charge toward reno hill , they acted like sacrificial lambs
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Post by crzhrs on Sept 22, 2005 6:47:28 GMT -6
Once organization and discipline broke down the men bunched up and were sitting ducks, then whoever was left started running towards LSH. As the Indians said: It was like a buffalo hunt.
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Post by shatonska on Sept 22, 2005 7:48:45 GMT -6
Once organization and discipline broke down the men bunched up and were sitting ducks, then whoever was left started running towards LSH. As the Indians said: It was like a buffalo hunt. yes but even before that sort of buffalo hunt that position was absurd , on that ridge 200 men sitted waiting to be wiped out , twomoon could not understand this , me too , they let the horses loose , this was a suicide move , i start thinking they didn't know what to do because custer was deadly wounded early , probably in keogh area and was brought to high ground lsh waiting for support ,when survivals from cahloun keogh arrived on lsh custer was dead so a big group tried to go for the river and were killed in the way down in the south skirmish line some could gain the ravine others on horse crossed ravine and tried to go back , this could explain why companies diddn't flee but waited on that ridge , the best place they could choose to be all killed , impossible to defend with gullies draws and grass for indians to hide and move closer
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Post by crzhrs on Sept 22, 2005 8:24:03 GMT -6
Possibly Keough's command was kept in reserve or was waiting for Benteen, not really expecting to be suddenly overwhelmed by a sizeable Indian force. Yes the high ground was the best for defense, but there was no cover and the men were fully exposed to Indians arching arrows from concealment or sneaking up through gullies & ravines.
Anything was possible, including panic, running for the ravine, Custer either mortally wounded or dead, loss of organization and command, etc.
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Post by Realbird on Sept 22, 2005 18:51:20 GMT -6
Here's another possibility. Undoubtedly, Keogh's command was over run with out any noticeable resistance. There is so much Indian testimony that supports this. However, Keogh 's body was discovered virtually encased by a small group of his command; a substantial portion of whom were non-Com's. Is it possible that Lone Bear encountered this small group of veteran soldiers who resisted to the last. Men who did not succumb to panic and fought to the last. In the big picture, this episode would have been insignificant. On an individual basis, however, a small group of soldiers may have raised havoc with a group of warriors. Such an encounter would have been remembered as a time of "stiff resistance" to a few of the warriors while totally ignored by countless other warriors who did not actually engage in this mini-battle.
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Post by shatonska on Sept 23, 2005 6:16:19 GMT -6
Here's another possibility. Undoubtedly, Keogh's command was over run with out any noticeable resistance. There is so much Indian testimony that supports this. However, Keogh 's body was discovered virtually encased by a small group of his command; a substantial portion of whom were non-Com's. Is it possible that Lone Bear encountered this small group of veteran soldiers who resisted to the last. Men who did not succumb to panic and fought to the last. In the big picture, this episode would have been insignificant. On an individual basis, however, a small group of soldiers may have raised havoc with a group of warriors. Such an encounter would have been remembered as a time of "stiff resistance" to a few of the warriors while totally ignored by countless other warriors who did not actually engage in this mini-battle. surely those who were on foot insted of fleeing to lsh regrouped and fought to the last with colts , many indians accounts tell this , this phase of the battle is the most clear , buffalo hunt with soldiers on horse going to lsh and those on foot standing and fighting while moving north , my problem is the goal of keogh position , soldiers were in a terrible situation and 2 companies stay out of fight in a position ideal to be all killed from two sides ,an incredible tactical mistake , those ridge was full of coulee instead of going there were horses could be held in a quite safe position and coulee could give cover to soldiers , all 5 companies were in the open , sacrifical lambs , i cannot stand this !
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Post by crzhrs on Sept 23, 2005 9:56:11 GMT -6
Keough was found with among other wounds a wounded knee and/or leg. He may have not been able to walk or run and it's possible that NCOs were trying to help or protect him by gathering around him and trying to hold off the Indians. They apparently were overrun together. How much damage they did to the warriors is unknown.
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Post by d o harris on Sept 23, 2005 12:06:55 GMT -6
When considering the defensive positions on battle ridge it would be well to have a good topographical map available. With such a map, for example, it is evident that Calhoun commanded from easy carbine range all the approaches from North Medicine Tail from which Indians could attack except the East, rear approach. Part of I would have had to be used to close that approach, with the balance of I facing West and the held horses of I and L in between. It seems to me that once the wing had spread along battle ridge there was an extended period of time- 1hr to 1 1/2 hr in which there was primarily only a desultory exchange of fire at long range, although the Indian presence grew steadily. Then, almost like a bolt of lightning, some disaster occurred that allowed the Indians to totally annihilate the command in 20 minutes or so. Naturally, I think I know what happened, but as yet it is a sketchy concept. Think Deep Ravine and Lame White Man.
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Post by crzhrs on Sept 23, 2005 12:09:00 GMT -6
It was Lame White Man's charge with his "suicide boys" who may have broken C company's structure and command, thereby starting the domino effect going all the way to Last Stand Hill.
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Post by weir on Sept 23, 2005 15:18:11 GMT -6
In Michno, Lame White Man's charge is said to have broken company E just outside of Deep Ravine, and chase the men back to Custer Hill.
Lame White Man's charge is now indicated on Calhoun Coulee on the battlefield but it seems to be false. Indians led by Crow King and Rain In the Face were those who repulsed Harrington's charge in Calhoun Coulee. Lame White Man charged and repulsed Custer's left wing in Deep Ravine.
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Post by shatonska on Sept 24, 2005 6:11:02 GMT -6
probably lame white man and suicide warriors charged on cemetery ridge or over deep ravine , following indian accounts their bodies were found there but nothing is sure ,if companies were positioned in defensive position east on finley cahloun west on cemetery ridge there were surely two separate charges , crazy horse white bull charge brought finley cahloun to fall , seeing warriors at their back disgregation was total , this attack gave confidence to the warriors who decided to charge on cahloun , before it was a long range fight
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Post by crzhrs on Sept 24, 2005 8:45:24 GMT -6
Lame White Man's initial action was against Company C, and after some resistance broke down, with survivors running towards Keough's Command, which apparently showed little to no resistance, with much hand-to-hand fighting that benefitted the warrior's fightly ability.
Keough was found among his NCOs apparently being wounded and unable to move. Whatever resistance they made was futile with Indians then steamrolling their way toward Last Stand Hill.
While LWM's initial action broke Company C, his followers immediately headed after remnants and finished off Keouh's men rather quickly.
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