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Post by shatonska on Sept 24, 2005 9:19:28 GMT -6
Lame White Man's initial action was against Company C, and after some resistance broke down, with survivors running towards Keough's Command, which apparently showed little to no resistance, with much hand-to-hand fighting that benefitted the warrior's fightly ability. Keough was found among his NCOs apparently being wounded and unable to move. Whatever resistance they made was futile with Indians then steamrolling their way toward Last Stand Hill. While LWM's initial action broke Company C, his followers immediately headed after remnants and finished off Keouh's men rather quickly. are you sure ? his body was found west of battle ridge over middle branch of deep ravine , and suicide warrior charge started from cemetery area , cheyenne accounts tell this but we can be sure of nothing please always put the word maybe , your account can be true , lame white man followed the charge on finley and ended killed while fighting or returning from keogh sector west of ridge but cheyenne accounts are so confusing i have noticed that in grinnel fighting cheyenne nye ridge is confused with cemetery , but accounts of dead suicide warriors clearly referr to ddep ravine area and south skirmish line i 'm a bit bored of all this confusion |
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Post by shatonska on Sept 26, 2005 14:50:39 GMT -6
do we all realize that less than 10 rifle cases were found in keogh sector ? how could this be a reserve position were soldiers didn't answer to indian fire ?
lots of indian bulletts around keogh east of the ridge confirm the shooting by warriors like crazy horse from a ravine further east , but soldiers didn't answer to this fire
many lakota accounts explain this phase of battle , in keogh sector soldiers were on the move north those on horse escaping while those on foot making small stands while triyng to reach lsh, using almost only the 6 shots of the colts with no time to reload
very strange the lack of soldiers cases in that area
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Post by crzhrs on Sept 26, 2005 14:57:37 GMT -6
A number of reasons: the field was picked clean throughout the years or Keough's man were so surprised they had no time to mount any kind of defense.
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Post by shatonska on Sept 26, 2005 15:05:15 GMT -6
A number of reasons: the field was picked clean throughout the years or Keough's man were so surprised they had no time to mount any kind of defense. mmm , the first has some possibility , the second none , it takes time to move horses down in that small draw , the line of those many indian cases in the ravine east shows a solid fire , if soldiers were standing in reserve they hed some time to respond to that fire , it took time for cahloun and finley to fall down ( so it seems ) , or cases are lost in some way or was a moving fight |
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Post by Melani on Dec 15, 2005 23:17:50 GMT -6
My understanding is that there were problems with the rifles, which jammed as soon as they got hot (which would have happened pretty fast on a hot June day!). There were some Indian reports of the soldiers throwing their rifles away, which the Indians thought was pretty odd. Would that have been of significance in the apparent lack of resistance? And what exactly caused the jamming?
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Post by El Crab on Dec 16, 2005 14:11:37 GMT -6
The jamming has mostly been disproved. Sure, they jammed occasionally, but what firearm didn't? but out of all the cases recovered, a very low percentage showed evidence of being pried out due to a jam.
In fact, more rifles likely jammed on the Lakota side, since they weren't known for keeping rifles clean and enjoyed sticking whatever cartridge into whatever rifle they had and giving it, um, a shot.
The lack of resistance was probably due to the field being picked clean. And with all of the markers in the Keogh section, I would guess it was a popular area to look.
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Post by markland on Dec 16, 2005 22:43:48 GMT -6
do we all realize that less than 10 rifle cases were found in keogh sector ? how could this be a reserve position were soldiers didn't answer to indian fire ? lots of indian bulletts around keogh east of the ridge confirm the shooting by warriors like crazy horse from a ravine further east , but soldiers didn't answer to this fire many lakota accounts explain this phase of battle , in keogh sector soldiers were on the move north those on horse escaping while those on foot making small stands while triyng to reach lsh, using almost only the 6 shots of the colts with no time to reload very strange the lack of soldiers cases in that area Shatonska, I believe you answered your own question with your statement, "...using almost only the 6 shots of the colts with no time to reload." If the Colt had been used by the majority of the men, the cases would have remained in the pistol if they had not an opportunity to reload before the Indians got into their lines. Billy |
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Post by olehoss on Jan 8, 2006 16:35:40 GMT -6
Where does Crazy Horse figure into this mix?
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Post by El Crab on Jan 9, 2006 3:07:19 GMT -6
Where does Crazy Horse figure into this mix? Well, I think Michno did some real good work in showing that the Keogh sector was compromised due to some bravery runs by White Bull and Crazy Horse, followed by the whole lot of 'em cutting the ridge. Essentially, this put a shock into the troops on the ridge, who had been held in reserve and suddenly they had Indians cutting them off from L and the left wing. And it appears their reaction was subpar. |
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kenny
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Post by kenny on Feb 12, 2006 0:35:24 GMT -6
I think Captain Keogh was watching what is going in front of him.But not paying attention behind him.Or he was trying to reform what left of Custer command.In both cast Custer was already kill.
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 12, 2006 2:15:20 GMT -6
It's a great shame that we don't know where Porter was killed. That might clarify things a lot. Keogh couldn't be everywhere; maybe Porter was watching Co. I's back, and his death was a critical loss?
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Feb 17, 2006 9:59:10 GMT -6
Read "Death of a Myth" or "Riding Into Glory". I think I explained the Keogh sector pretty well in both books. In a nutshell, things happened pretty fast, Keogh mistakenly believed that the river was a defensive barrier so nobody was watching the back door, I also believe there would have been cartridge casings where the road runs from LSH to Calhoun Hill as I don't believe the area Keogh was found was actually a reserve position (the ridge behind him was) as is believed by many. As Shatonska asked, Why would they have stayed in that area while the warriors fired down on them from the ridges? The answer is they wouldn't have. The tactics of the day would have been to run the warriors off of the ridge to the east. Unfortunately, the collapse of Company C on Calhoun Ridge (Finley) and the collapse of L onCalhoun Hill happened so quick that a probably already wounded Keogh had no time to adapt to the new situation, which included warriors coming up Deep Ravine behind him.
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 18, 2006 7:51:27 GMT -6
Yes, I've read "Death of a Myth", and liked it a lot -- not least the active role you suggest for Co. I. It never did seem quite right to have them sitting there twiddling their thumbs and doing nothing while a fight was going on; very hard to imagine. Your version makes much more sense. I couldn't find any mention of the river-as-barrier explanation, though; was that in the other book? It's possible ... but it seems a strange mistake for an experienced soldier like Keogh to make. (Not that it'd be the only strange mistake made that day, of course!) He'd surely have realised how fordable it was, either from seeing the NCO whose horse bolted across into the village, or simply from the number of Indians flooding across from the west. Especially if he was indeed on the ridge, not below it (and I'm sure you're right on that). Is it possible that Co. C was supposed to be "watching the back door"? And that it was Harrington making a mess of that task that precipitated the collapse?
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Feb 18, 2006 9:47:54 GMT -6
Elisabeth,
I might have added the river comment in Riding Into Glory or it could have been a CBHMA paper I presented a few years ago. The soldiers seemed to always search for fordable locations while the the warriors crossed anywhere. I think Co. C was trying to run off warriors on Calhoun Ridge that were starting to flank Calhoun's Co. Unfortunately, they didn't bank on Deep Ravine, which makes a turn below the area where the 28 bodies were supposed to have been. That would possibly explain why Keogh didn't see the warriors that slipped up behind him until it was too late. By the time they had become visible from the ridge, he had already moved into the depression to protect Co. L's horses and holders. I believe he was wounded during the movement and that is why they failed to push the warriors off of the ridgeline to the east. Shortly after the other two companies collapse and they are virtually surrounded.
I believe that Lt. Harrington was one of the mutilated bodies that was left on Calhoun Ridge, near Finley marker area. His death may have triggered the panic in that area. Indian accounts support the theory. I added that in Riding Into Glory and possibly the second printing of Death of a Myth last year (I corrected all of the typos and other mistakes while I was at it). I just can't buy the theory that Keogh just sat there in that depression while warriors moved onto the eastern ridgeline and started shooting Calhoun's horse holders, not to mention flanking Calhoun's line on Calhoun Hill. That would have been absurd and I don't believe even Major Reno would have made that foolish an error. The tactics of the day are quoted by too many "experts" to explain why Custer would have done this or that and why Keogh would have kept a reserve company or two. Yet, they forget to apply the same tactics to what Keogh should have done when the warriors took possession of the eastern ridgeline.
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 18, 2006 10:28:38 GMT -6
I'm so glad you've said that. I never could buy the sitting-in-that-depression theory either!
That Deep Ravine explanation sounds good. Yes, I can see that. And if Porter was already dead or out of action, Keogh being wounded would have made the attack to the east falter. From the position of the bodies in that sector (trumpeter, guidon-bearer, NCOs) it looks as if he tried to rally the men and carry on the fight even after he was downed, but I suppose even a momentary hesitation woud have let the warriors from the eastern ridge swoop down and seize the advantage.
I think perhaps that where those "experts" get it wrong is (harking back to the "Wild I" thread) that they've picked up a false picture of Keogh's nature and ability. If they've just heard the "brutal/drunk" stories, they discount the man from the start; then they see that he missed out on Washita and the Yellowstone fight, and construct from that a "no Indian-fighting experience" characterisation; from there on, it's easy for them to assume he's a helpless incompetent, and read the action that way. Whereas, as you say, even Reno -- even little Jack Sturgis -- probably even Boston or Autie Reed! -- would have had more wit than to sit there and do nothing ...!
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