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Post by mac on Feb 21, 2020 20:19:04 GMT -6
Mac, An attack by the main body conducting an attack on enemy village, located west of river. How many US bodies were discovered west of village from the main body? A decapitated head, possibly one body. The main body conducted no attack, anywhere, ever. Wandering the empty prairie is not an attack. When did they cross the river, in what strength, and who did they attack? The only attack conducted in this battle was conducted by the Reno detachment. A 3 company advance guard of an 8 company regimental attack. Why did the main body not support the regimental attack? Respectfully, William You got me William technically it was not an attack in my view (and yes words matter so thank you). Rather it was a move towards the village that faltered when Custer could see that, at that time and place, he would not be able to cross the river. This was due to the warrior numbers building quickly and the geometry of the river at that point. The new archaeology suggests to me that the warriors were quickly moving along the west side of the river past Custer's right flank and then around Custer Creek to the north and into his rear. Consequently Custer quickly started to try to break contact and move back to the south. He was not successful. Cheers
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Post by noggy on Feb 22, 2020 3:58:05 GMT -6
The extensive new archaeology from the valley beyond Ford D indicates that a large scale action occurred there just as all the Cheyenne accounts say, including John Stands in Timber's work. Hi This sounds extremely interesting. I thought the area was either too disturbed by building projects to examine, or on private land. Is there somewhere I canread more about this? All the best, Noggy
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Post by fred on Feb 22, 2020 9:26:53 GMT -6
How did Ford D and the Custer battle wind up on this thread?
Well... anyway, it is here, so I shall put in a couple cents' worth.
A couple years ago, my friends and I went to the area where Richard Fox believes that ford was located. While changed dramatically from what that area looked like in 1876, it seemed somewhat odd. This year, one of the seasonal rangers is going to take us to the area he feels is the actual Ford D. I do not know if his differs from that of Richard Fox.
As for "battle flow," there was none. It was a piecemeal, set-to battle, essentially about three of them, the first occurring in the southern sector, extending to the middle, and ending on Last Stand Hill/Deep Ravine. If that is considered "south-to-north," then so be it. The guff the fighting began in the north is sheer and utter nonsense, unless you consider the skirmish around Ford D part of the fighting. Even that, however, occurred around the same time as Harrington's foray (basically, 3:42 pm [Ford D arrival] versus 3:44 pm [Harrington's charge]).
By the way, the valley book is at the publisher. Best guess at this time is end-of-year publication. That's a bit disappointing to me: I had hoped by June, but such are the fortunes of publishing I guess.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mac on Feb 23, 2020 7:41:40 GMT -6
How did Ford D and the Custer battle wind up on this thread? The wonders of discussion Fred. Good Luck with the book. Noggy If you have not already then read "Cheyenne Memories of the Custer fight" by Hardorff. Then know that at Ford B all the archaeology shows is that they made a movie there once. So read the Cheyenne's stories and have your map showing Ford D area, that is the valley below LSH and Cemetery Ridge. Cheers
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Post by montrose on Feb 23, 2020 8:55:18 GMT -6
Fred,
The north to south theory is that all 5 companies of the Custer detachment went to Ford D, and somehow 3 of them made it to south end battle ridge. I can not even come up with a straw man theory to knock down. It is simply not possible. Remember how touchy Harper got when he was asked about facts to support his theory. Good man, bad theorist.
The relevance to the valley must be addressed in your book. Why did LTC Custer order a regiment attack of 8 companies in the valley, and then withhold 5? Why did he not tell MAJ Reno of this change to mission?
MAJ Reno's decision making can not be understood without answering these 2 questions. Anyone familiar with my posts here know my analysis of why.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 23, 2020 11:46:28 GMT -6
William
I think the north south theory only has a small component that moves down to the flat at one of the Ford Ds. If all 5 had went down there they would might have retrograded a different direction. So the Donahue theory has E and F moving out Battle Ridge Extension then down toward Ford D and the moving across Cemetery Ridge with E hold CR and F moving to LSH.
At least one of the all 5 company theories has E and F moving across CR then down to Ford D and retrograding the same way the came with E holding CR and F moving toward LSH. In this 5 company movement CIL move in mutual support along BRE and possibly halt at the end of the BRE fork near the old entrance gate and just above the Kellogg marker seen in an earlier picture taken at the dedication of the new and current entarance. The 5 company movement is all offense up to the point where Custer runs into the Cheyennes that are getting their horses that were across Ford D to the north. CIL would move back BRE toward LSH and then continue toward the Calhoun Area. E and F are holding the rear. Es last position is close to the Admin site and near the outdoor theater.
The artifacts on BRE has 14 different carbines identified by cases. 4 of those identified carbine by found cases are identified in the Calhoun Area. I believe Donahue has the identified fired cases in the Calhoun Area placed on the way over by either E or F and then the identified cases placed on BRE afterwards.
My personal issue is if some troops were to wait for Benteen bringing whatever they were to bring why would the Indians be allowed a free travel corridor of MTC and free movement in the western corridor. The Calhoun area can not cover with fire anything until E,F move closer from the north or Benteen crosses both MTC and Deep Coulee with mules in tow.
So for me I need to know what route Benteen would be expected to travel to the Calhoun Area.
Regards
Steve
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Post by noggy on Feb 23, 2020 14:24:18 GMT -6
Noggy If you have not already then read "Cheyenne Memories of the Custer fight" by Hardorff. Then know that at Ford B all the archaeology shows is that they made a movie there once. So read the Cheyenne's stories and have your map showing Ford D area, that is the valley below LSH and Cemetery Ridge. Cheers Hi mac Yes, I have that book. When you wrote about new archaeology I assumed it was something very recent had been done. All the best, Noggy
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Post by fred on Feb 23, 2020 19:00:33 GMT -6
Fred, The north to south theory is that all 5 companies of the Custer detachment went to Ford D, and somehow 3 of them made it to south end battle ridge. I can not even come up with a straw man theory to knock down. It is simply not possible. Remember how touchy Harper got when he was asked about facts to support his theory. Good man, bad theorist. Will, I agree with you with each point you make here. This first issue is addressed directly. I do not go into the second, but I discuss the end results of this failure as you originally asked several years ago. Your observation was quite valid and I address that issue. Very best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 24, 2020 13:13:54 GMT -6
I think Custer was doing what many politicians do: throw out as much mud as you can and see what sticks to the wall.
He was hoping anything he did would frighten the Indians into retreating and/or trying to save non-coms rather than making a stand and countering his decisions. Remember, most military men felt Indians would rather run than fight. Hard to understand Custer who had spent many years in the frontier and had all kinds of experience with Indians (Washita comes to mind) thinking Indians would rather run than fight. I guess he forgot Grattan, Fetterman and many other commanders who underestimated Indian's resolve.
Unfortunately for Custer he divided his command into so many small individual units that anything they tried to do was easily repulsed.
The military's phobia of Indians running rather than making a stand led to 7th's debacle at the LBH.
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Post by mac on Feb 25, 2020 4:16:49 GMT -6
Hi This sounds extremely interesting. I thought the area was either too disturbed by building projects to examine, or on private land. Is there somewhere I canread more about this? All the best, Noggy Noggy It will be in Donahue's new book, as I understand. Ignore what commentators say and read the accounts and view the geography as Ford D area, and look at the evidence that AZ has presented. Evidence not opinion. There is a reason why people are troubled by Ford B, and it is that it makes no sense at all to go there. Cheers
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 25, 2020 8:01:48 GMT -6
Fred
I think we are digressing while waiting for the book.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 25, 2020 8:19:37 GMT -6
Crossing considerations by a relative large body of cavalry. (More than 1 company).
Opposed or unopposed.
Flat or high ground nearby.
Ingress wide or narrow, flat or steep entry
Egress wide or narrow, flat or steep exit
Substrate hard bottom, soft, unknown
Water depth, current
Vegetation open, heavy riparian, trees
Infrastructure absent or present
I am sure I haven't listed all the factors but these are some that should be considered in my opinion. The first is very important because without opposing forces you can mitigate the other factors. Ford B is not a good crossing for every single factor I listed. Can you cross there? For sure it's done all the time but look how its done. The best ford to cross is Ford D with it wide front ingress/egress if opposed. It is my current belief that the Cheyennes had their horses across the river and the recon confirmed it by retrograding.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by fred on Feb 25, 2020 16:25:50 GMT -6
Fred I think we are digressing while waiting for the book. Regards Steve It may be a while, Steve. Preliminary indications are year-end. Digress away!! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by noggy on Feb 26, 2020 2:02:25 GMT -6
Noggy It will be in Donahue's new book, as I understand. Ignore what commentators say and read the accounts and view the geography as Ford D area, and look at the evidence that AZ has presented. Evidence not opinion. There is a reason why people are troubled by Ford B, and it is that it makes no sense at all to go there. Cheers Hi Ok, I see. Is he really already coming up with a new book? Didn`t WTRRR come out a year and a half ago, or something like that? Ford D is something I try to find as much info on as possible. As for Ford B, I assume a small feint or show of force around the upper parts might have happened, but I`m not in the "GAC tried to cross"-camp either. All the best, Noggy
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Post by noggy on Feb 26, 2020 2:05:10 GMT -6
Fred I think we are digressing while waiting for the book. Regards Steve It may be a while, Steve. Preliminary indications are year-end. Digress away!! Best wishes, Fred. Hi Fred For us Continentals, will the easiest (or rather cheapest) way to get hold of this be to order directly from McFarland? All the best, Geir
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