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Post by fred on Jan 10, 2020 6:29:53 GMT -6
... The concept you are addressing is the Army is not focused on what to do. This means a standard response to all situations. The Army focus is how to think. The Military Decision Making Process (MDMP) is based on how to make a decision. The classic COL Boyd Observe, Orientate, Decide, Act (OODA) loop is how to think.... I have never seen the command and control problems addressed in any work on LBH. Fred, please give it a shot. Will, Have you a video recorder at my back? I cannot believe you posted this. The book is loaded with OODA Loop references and how Reno loses control of it and passes it off to the warriors, though with an interim step. When working on this, I could not believe how well it applied. As for "command and control," much of my criticism of Reno is centered around this issue. That, and the surrendering of mobility. The biggest issue I think I am having now-- finishing it ip-- is prolix. Very best wishes, Will... hope you are doing well, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 10, 2020 9:55:08 GMT -6
Benteen and Reno's orders were perfectly clear:
Benteen stated at the RCOI: "My orders were to proceed out into a line of bluffs . . . to pitch into anything I came across."
Reno stated at the RCOI: " . . . to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent and charge the village . . ."
Edgerly stated at the RCOI: "Benteen was ordered to move to the left . . .and to pitch into anything he came to . . ."
Edgerly stated at the RCOI: "Reno's orders were to move down the valley and attack anything he came to . . ."
We can read into anything Benteen and Reno's orders but in the end the main order was to attack Indians.
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Post by montrose on Jan 13, 2020 22:44:33 GMT -6
Benteen and Reno's orders were perfectly clear: Benteen stated at the RCOI: "My orders were to proceed out into a line of bluffs . . . to pitch into anything I came across." Reno stated at the RCOI: " . . . to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent and charge the village . . ." Edgerly stated at the RCOI: "Benteen was ordered to move to the left . . .and to pitch into anything he came to . . ." Edgerly stated at the RCOI: "Reno's orders were to move down the valley and attack anything he came to . . ." We can read into anything Benteen and Reno's orders but in the end the main order was to attack Indians. Crazyhorse, LTC Custer kept developing templates of where the village was located, and kept changing as he developed the situation. I believe his decision making was heavily influenced by the Crow scouts knowledge of this area. Remember they had been in LB valley while scouting for Gibbon, a few months before, plus lived in this area for decades. The first template was the junction of Reno Creek and South Fork Reno Creek (SFRC). This was a traditional camp ground and had been the village location during the Rosebud fight. Benteen was ordered to scout the area to the left of this template. This area was where the horse herds would be. When he reached SFRC he blocked any retreat in this direction and wasin position for a flank attack. LTC Custer's micro-adjustments to Benteen indicates his high belief that a village was there, and interest in an attack. The second template was that the village was in LBH valley, near Ford A. A critical information requirement was whether it was north or south of Ford A. Note the village actually went south of Ford A after the SFRC camp, only moved north because of location of game herds. At this point the regiment conducted a movement to contact, one battalion up, and two back. They moved from SFRC to Ford A in this formation, with Custer pausing main body to let advanced guard get 2 bounds ahead, right down the book for tactical movement. Any claim that the Reno battalion was not an advance guard has some heavy tap dancing to do to explain away the facts. Recall Godfrey and Keogh moved with the advance guard, to gain information. The critical decision is why LTC Custer abandoned the advance guard. He had to have positive information village was north of Ford A, else his decisions become lunacy. Indians fleeing from Reno must have gone north, perhaps there was dust or smoke downriver as well. The decision to go north must have been based on data from Bouyer. If village was north of A and south of B, Custer could come in behind the camp, attack their rear, and destroy them. He had zero information of the existence of Ford B except for the Crows. This was a bold decision based on assumptions. And at 3411 he saw the truth. His decisions after 3411 are horrible, he went all in when he abandoned the regiment main attack, and lost his nerve in all decisions thereafter.
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Post by wild on Jan 18, 2020 20:00:43 GMT -6
. At this point the regiment conducted a movement to contact, one battalion up, and two back Custer did not have the means of control over detachments nor were his subordinate detachment commanders aware that they were operating in concert with each other.Other than that Custer had informed Reno that he would be supported.
Any claim that the Reno battalion was not an advance guard has some heavy tap dancing to do to explain away the facts. Recall Godfrey and Keogh moved with the advance guard, to gain information. Custer had already committed his battalion to the other side of the river and the bluffs before Keogh returned. Never heard it said that Custer acted on intell from Keogh. Has anybody included a timing for a halt by Custer at ford A?
The critical decision is why LTC Custer abandoned the advance guard. He had to have positive information village was north of Ford A, else his decisions become lunacy. Indians fleeing from Reno must have gone north, perhaps there was dust or smoke downriver as well. The decision to go north must have been based on data from Bouyer. If village was north of A and south of B, Custer could come in behind the camp, attack their rear, and destroy them. He had zero information of the existence of Ford B except for the Crows. This was a bold decision based on assumptions. Bouyer was a scout and was not in a position to advise Custer on the tactics to be used.
And at 3411 he saw the truth. And he turns to Bouyer and says "well F**K you Boyuer you have done for us all now.
Cheers Richard
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Post by wild on Jan 19, 2020 13:16:32 GMT -6
The directed and controlled firepower plus leadership and organisation of a 3 company unit could stand off any number of Indians. And certainly 5 companies could defeat any number of disorganised rabble of savages. So thought Custer . With this reasoning he could detach 3 company units willy nilly and swan around the hood striking wherever took his fancy. He was in a word operating under cavalier rules. A monkeys tea party would make more sense. Cheers Richard
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Post by montrose on Jan 20, 2020 9:54:54 GMT -6
The directed and controlled firepower plus leadership and organisation of a 3 company unit could stand off any number of Indians. And certainly 5 companies could defeat any number of disorganised rabble of savages. So thought Custer . With this reasoning he could detach 3 company units willy nilly and swan around the hood striking wherever took his fancy. He was in a word operating under cavalier rules. A monkeys tea party would make more sense. Cheers Richard Richard, This makes no sense. You claim any 3 companies can defeat an infinite number of Indians. I am sure Braddock would agree. But no one else. Tactics matter. Training matters. Leadership matters. LTC Custer lost a battle through gross incompetence. Any other leader would have achieved a better outcome. I include folks courtmartialed, like Reynolds. Both incompetent and unfit for command, but GAC was more incompetent and more unfit. Glad to see you posting again, I hope you and family are doing well. Respectfully, William
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Post by wild on Jan 22, 2020 3:52:43 GMT -6
William Hardly posting! Just amusing meself raking through the ash of battles past but thank you for your good wishes and I trust all is well with you.
My observation above is badly made so again.
Benteen,Reno and reserves are detachments. They are operating independently from each other and from the main body and there is no predetermined plan and the now separated the battalions are blindly following a direction to attack. The fragmentation of the command fatally reduces the fighting capability of the main body The terrain over which they are operating is unknown to them and location ,disposition and strenght of the enemy is sketchy to say the least. To say that Custer was incompetent is to suggest that he attempted and failed to fight his command according to some recognised military attack template. I see nothing remotely recognisable as a military tactic being employed here. If he wanted to destroy his command he could not have done a better job. It is even suggested by some of our friends hereabouts that his last throw of the dice was to detach Keogh. So what are we left with? A Custer supremely confident or stark raving mad. Best Richard
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dgfred
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by dgfred on Jan 28, 2020 9:24:20 GMT -6
I think way overconfident and in too big a rush to prevent escape.
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Post by fred on Jan 30, 2020 10:31:57 GMT -6
All questions, as posed, answered. Book is...
Finished!
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Colt45 on Jan 30, 2020 18:26:16 GMT -6
Outstanding, Fred!! Now, when can it be purchased, and will it be thru MacFarland again?
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Post by fred on Jan 30, 2020 21:50:50 GMT -6
... when can it be purchased, and will it be thru MacFarland again? Thanks, Colt. Do not know what the lead time is. Still proof-reading it which I need to do twice, just to make sure the index is accurate, then to make sure it reads like something other than a 3rd-grade primer. I suspect it should be out within three months. And yes, McFarland once again. They seem to like me and I certainly like them By the way, unless you have changed your real name, you will find it in the acknowledgments. Your questions should all be answered, though I am not sure you will like or agree. There are some very interesting circumstances I discovered, things I have never seen discussed. Also, while there is some interesting stuff in Part I, Part II is the valley fight. Thanks for all your interest over these years. Guys like you make this worthwhile. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 31, 2020 9:53:08 GMT -6
Fred, I thought you nailed the Reno Valley Fight in the Research Magazine you sent me some years ago, but if you have expanded and improved that work, then you are onto a winner my friend.
Here’s to another successful book and all the best for 2020.
Ian
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Post by dave on Jan 31, 2020 10:27:22 GMT -6
Congratulations Fred! I look forward to getting my copy! Regards Dave
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Post by Colt45 on Jan 31, 2020 12:10:20 GMT -6
Fred, I am very much looking forward to this book. It will undoubtedly, as your other books are, be outstanding. My real name has not changed. I didn't expect any acknowledgement but am pleased you thought I contributed something of value.
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 1, 2020 13:03:51 GMT -6
I assume all members here will get a free copy of the book . . . I can dream can't I?
Congratulations.
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