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Post by 1ralph on Jan 25, 2018 12:39:04 GMT -6
I think that it was either Custer himself or Tom Custer, who shot by his brother on the head as a form of suicide to avoid being used as a hostage. This outcome explains why his body was not mutilated. I do not believe the story where An Indian woman begged to spare his body from mutilation. The idea of Custer committing suicide did not meet Libby Custer narrative of the last stand story. I believe that this idea was excluded to keep the last man standing myth which was supposed to be Custer himself alive.
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Post by 1ralph on Jan 25, 2018 13:37:23 GMT -6
bosshawg Avatar Jan 27, 2017 12:00:06 GMT -5 bosshawg said: I am new to this board but have been reading as a guest for a few years. I have no military experience and have only read about six books on Custer and the Little Big Horn, one of them was Fred's book. I am clearly in over my head on this board. Early on in my reading I believed the White Cow Bull story of Custer being shot at Ford B. That issue has been discussed several times on the board. I now wonder if maybe Custer was shot early on as he approached or attempted to cross at Ford D. If he had all five companies with him at Ford D and was wounded or killed, would they have withdrawn to LSH and then possibly Calhoun gone south to in some way look for or assist in the expected arrival of Benteen? Could this have caused the battlefield to look as it did? I hope this is not too remedial for this board. Like you I have read a couple books on Custer and Big Horn. I believe that Custer did not like Captain Benteen and he did not want him to have any glory in the attack so he sent him on a wild goose chase to look for Indians. Maj Reno attack was to draw out the Indians to make them believe that this was a major attack while Custer would do the primary attack from High ground. After Custer realize the size of the village, I believe that he divided his battalion into two wings to have a wider coverage and to support the second wave attack from high ground to take the pressure off of Reno. This tactic became worthless, as you know, because Reno retreated from his defensive positions from the tree line. Reno retreat the Indian village to focus all of their resources on the second attack. This resulted in Myles Keogh, who commanded the second wing to retreat like Reno that cost to lose as many men as Reno. It is likely that the left wing support Keogh retreat. I believe this is when Custer became wounded through the chest. In short, when Custer was hit command and control were lost as the regiment became leaderless as to where to move next. I believe the left wing moved to nearest high ground, and that was Custer's hill so the doctor could treat Custer's wounds. The right wing followed Custer's wing and stop to set up a skirmish line to support the left wing when it stopped at Custer Hill. In short, has Custer not been wounded. I am sure that he would have led the Regiment to Benteen and safety. Instead, someone made a bad call and went in the wrong direction. Since the ground where Custer's hill is full of dead space with little cover, it was easy for the Indians to move in. First, they killed of the guys who were holding the horses which cause them to stampede. Second, as the battle progress as Custer soldiers ran out of ammo they begin to close in on people who had ammo. This I believe caused the line to collapse from the right wing. Then when the left wing overrun as a result of running out of ammo. The survivors retreat to the right wing. This result enabled the Indians to get within 200 meters of the right wing and Custer Hill. The primary advantage for the Indians was terrain and weapons to keep it short. These weapons included Remington Repeating Rifles, which could fire 13 rounds in thirty seconds where Custer soldiers; would be lucky to fire four during a thirty second period. Second was the open ground with dead space. This gave cover to the Indians in their attack, and Custer Soldiers had no place for cover, unless they killed their horses, thus taking away their only means for escape. In the end, on Custer Hill there was no last stand where there was a good fight. During the 1990s, the ground was surveyed by archeologist, and they found no spent ammo cartilages on Custer Hill. Instead, they found a few live ammo shells and bullets fired from repeating rifles. Sadly enough everyone was cut down from arrows to repeating rifles that were fired from the Indians. For those who ran from Custer Hill, they likely ran after Custer killed himself. This may explain why the Regimental Sgt Major made a run for it before he was killed by the Indians.
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Post by 1ralph on Jan 25, 2018 13:38:27 GMT -6
aaa
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Post by 1ralph on Jan 25, 2018 13:38:51 GMT -6
I am new to this board but have been reading as a guest for a few years. I have no military experience and have only read about six books on Custer and the Little Big Horn, one of them was Fred's book. I am clearly in over my head on this board. Early on in my reading I believed the White Cow Bull story of Custer being shot at Ford B. That issue has been discussed several times on the board. I now wonder if maybe Custer was shot early on as he approached or attempted to cross at Ford D. If he had all five companies with him at Ford D and was wounded or killed, would they have withdrawn to LSH and then possibly Calhoun gone south to in some way look for or assist in the expected arrival of Benteen? Could this have caused the battlefield to look as it did? I hope this is not too remedial for this board. Like you I have read a couple books on Custer and Big Horn. I believe that Custer did not like Captain Benteen and he did not want him to have any glory in the attack so he sent him on a wild goose chase to look for Indians. Maj Reno attack was to draw out the Indians to make them believe that this was a major attack while Custer would do the primary attack from High ground. After Custer realize the size of the village, I believe that he divided his battalion into two wings to have a wider coverage and to support the second wave attack from high ground to take the pressure off of Reno. This tactic became worthless, as you know, because Reno retreated from his defensive positions from the tree line. Reno retreat the Indian village to focus all of their resources on the second attack. This resulted in Myles Keogh, who commanded the second wing to retreat like Reno that cost to lose as many men as Reno. It is likely that the left wing support Keogh retreat. I believe this is when Custer became wounded through the chest. In short, when Custer was hit command and control were lost as the regiment became leaderless as to where to move next. I believe the left wing moved to nearest high ground, and that was Custer's hill so the doctor could treat Custer's wounds. The right wing followed Custer's wing and stop to set up a skirmish line to support the left wing when it stopped at Custer Hill. In short, has Custer not been wounded. I am sure that he would have led the Regiment to Benteen and safety. Instead, someone made a bad call and went in the wrong direction. Since the ground where Custer's hill is full of dead space with little cover, it was easy for the Indians to move in. First, they killed of the guys who were holding the horses which cause them to stampede. Second, as the battle progress as Custer soldiers ran out of ammo they begin to close in on people who had ammo. This I believe caused the line to collapse from the right wing. Then when the left wing overrun as a result of running out of ammo. The survivors retreat to the right wing. This result enabled the Indians to get within 200 meters of the right wing and Custer Hill. The primary advantage for the Indians was terrain and weapons to keep it short. These weapons included Remington Repeating Rifles, which could fire 13 rounds in thirty seconds where Custer soldiers; would be lucky to fire four during a thirty second period. Second was the open ground with dead space. This gave cover to the Indians in their attack, and Custer Soldiers had no place for cover, unless they killed their horses, thus taking away their only means for escape. In the end, on Custer Hill there was no last stand where there was a good fight. During the 1990s, the ground was surveyed by archeologist, and they found no spent ammo cartilages on Custer Hill. Instead, they found a few live ammo shells and bullets fired from repeating rifles. Sadly enough everyone was cut down from arrows to repeating rifles that were fired from the Indians. For those who ran from Custer Hill, they likely ran after Custer killed himself. This may explain why the Regimental Sgt Major made a run for it before he was killed by the Indians.
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Post by Colt45 on Jan 25, 2018 17:49:14 GMT -6
1Ralph, and Bosshawg. Welcome to the board. From the testimony of Reno about how the attack was to be carried out, it appears the initial plan was for Reno to start the attack, and as the situation developed, Custer would support Reno and maneuver based on the Indian response to Reno. Why Custer went up the bluffs instead of crossing at ford A to support Reno is one of the 64 dollar questions.
Custer received a report that the Indians were fleeing, and that may have been what caused him to suddenly go up the bluffs as he desired to prevent them from fleeing north. What he didn't realize was the Indians were not fleeing, but rather coming out to fight Reno. Fred opines something similar in "Strategy". Once up the bluffs, speed was essential to his plans. I am one of those who believe Custer took all 5 companies to ford D, where his attempt to cross was thwarted, and that when things appeared way too dicey to stay in the area, he began a covered withdrawal, sending first L company to retrace the route back to Reno and Benteen, followed by C company, then I. Time and hostile action did not allow this withdrawal to complete successfully.
If any troops went to ford B, it would have been a small detachment, not the entire wing and evidence indicates very little fighting occurred there. Not everyone on this board agrees that 5 companies went to ford D, but it is another possibility and recent archeological evidence found in the battle ridge extension supports this theory. Most of the posters on this board have well thought out positions, even if we all have different theories.
So chime in and provide your theories, just be sure to provide some evidence to support your position. Again, welcome.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 26, 2018 6:18:37 GMT -6
Colt, you know we agree on the 5 moving further north than the conventional theory. But to the other issue above, suicide, fratricide, or well placed NA bullet?
Regards, Tom
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Post by noggy on Jan 26, 2018 9:42:28 GMT -6
Colt, you know we agree on the 5 moving further north than the conventional theory. But to the other issue above, suicide, fratricide, or well placed NA bullet? Regards, Tom Or a random bullet hitting the grounded and maybe already dead man in his head? A bullet wound has one cause; someone pulled a trigger. But from before and after that moment, dozens of things could happen. This is a great scene from an mediocre movie (I think someone here once used it as an example earlier, not sure): www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oSJdSL8YOE
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Post by hunter631 on Jan 26, 2018 10:24:11 GMT -6
1Ralph, and Bosshawg. Welcome to the board. From the testimony of Reno about how the attack was to be carried out, it appears the initial plan was for Reno to start the attack, and as the situation developed, Custer would support Reno and maneuver based on the Indian response to Reno. Why Custer went up the bluffs instead of crossing at ford A to support Reno is one of the 64 dollar questions. Custer received a report that the Indians were fleeing, and that may have been what caused him to suddenly go up the bluffs as he desired to prevent them from fleeing north. What he didn't realize was the Indians were not fleeing, but rather coming out to fight Reno. Fred opines something similar in "Strategy". Once up the bluffs, speed was essential to his plans. I am one of those who believe Custer took all 5 companies to ford D, where his attempt to cross was thwarted, and that when things appeared way too dicey to stay in the area, he began a covered withdrawal, sending first L company to retrace the route back to Reno and Benteen, followed by C company, then I. Time and hostile action did not allow this withdrawal to complete successfully. If any troops went to ford B, it would have been a small detachment, not the entire wing and evidence indicates very little fighting occurred there. Not everyone on this board agrees that 5 companies went to ford D, but it is another possibility and recent archeological evidence found in the battle ridge extension supports this theory. Most of the posters on this board have well thought out positions, even if we all have different theories. So chime in and provide your theories, just be sure to provide some evidence to support your position. Again, welcome. Just wanted to echo your welcome to members newer than me,and your very worthwhile suggestion on supporting evidence. !Ralph your post was fast and furious, the LBH fight had a lot of moving parts and most folk's theories evolve with expanding research and a clearer understanding of what we think actually happened through thoughtful analysis. Some events were much more seminal than others. Colt, as an old collector of antique arms I liked your handle, the Model P (SAA ) has always been the core of my addiction.So a quick note on weaponry back to IRalph,Remington never made a repeating rifle, they experimented with a "revolving" rifle in low production numbers between 1866 and 1879, and again with the Remington -Beals with only about 800 produced, they were never very popular and were 6 shooters. The majority of repeating arms we know were used at LBH by NA's were Henry's, Model 1866 and '73 Winchesters ( identified by extractor markings and firing pin impression)The rifles had a 15 shot tubular magazine and carbines 13 rds. In over 40 yrs. of being around these weapons,Ive never seen anyone able to fire 13 aimed shots in 30 secs. There has been significant numbers of artifact finds on Custers field including many spent projectiles,check out Fox’s “ Archaeology,History and Custers Last Battle” Opinions are great,making up ones own facts,not so much. Regards to all, Hunter
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Post by wild on Jan 26, 2018 13:01:02 GMT -6
Depends on the range and size of the target Hunter . I would put 13 rounds in a barn door at 50 yards in 30 seconds with some to spare CHEERS
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Post by hunter631 on Jan 26, 2018 13:15:10 GMT -6
That would be 1 BIG Lakota warrior! Cheers back at you
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 26, 2018 14:38:05 GMT -6
Colt, you know we agree on the 5 moving further north than the conventional theory. But to the other issue above, suicide, fratricide, or well placed NA bullet? Regards, Tom Or a random bullet hitting the grounded and maybe already dead man in his head? A bullet wound has one cause; someone pulled a trigger. But from before and after that moment, dozens of things could happen. This is a great scene from an mediocre movie (I think someone here once used it as an example earlier, not sure): www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oSJdSL8YOENoggy, I don't ever remember hearing about powder burns or the head wound being a through and through wound. So, if it was from a rim fire .44 the energy was about spent. Thanks for the video.
Rgards, Tom
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Post by noggy on Jan 26, 2018 15:01:49 GMT -6
Or a random bullet hitting the grounded and maybe already dead man in his head? A bullet wound has one cause; someone pulled a trigger. But from before and after that moment, dozens of things could happen. This is a great scene from an mediocre movie (I think someone here once used it as an example earlier, not sure): www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oSJdSL8YOENoggy, I don't ever remember hearing about powder burns or the head wound being a through and through wound. So, if it was from a rim fire .44 the energy was about spent. Thanks for the video.
Rgards, Tom
It wasn`t too serious meant, just try to point out that in the middle of combat a lot of things can happen including heads being hit by projectiles All the best Geir
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Post by pequod on Jan 26, 2018 15:33:10 GMT -6
Wild, It's good to know you are able to hit a barn door at 50 yards in 30 seconds; but, if that barn door was moving, then what would you be able to hit?
Just asking....
Pequod
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Post by pamelaxyz on Jul 22, 2018 15:48:35 GMT -6
I just joined the site. I've read books about Custer beginning in the Civil War through his endeavors out West. Being Native American my opinions might be "slanted", but one is ever in the quest for the truth. Was Custer shot at the Ford? Any ideas on that subject?
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Post by Colt45 on Jul 23, 2018 7:42:21 GMT -6
Most likely it was not Custer shot at the ford. Actions by the cavalry after that incident indicate he was still commanding the 5 companies. Also, shell casings from his guns were found underneath his body, indicating he was probably hit at Last Stand Hill. Lt Sturgis is one good possibility for the officer hit at the crossing.
Welcome to the site. Your Native American viewpoint is very welcome here as we always need to hear views from the other side of the battle.
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