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Post by fred on Feb 6, 2017 16:48:01 GMT -6
Assuming Custer thinks a 3 company forces can force a big village back (Reno)... would he not think 2 or 3 companies slamming into the middle of the village might do the same. Then take HQ and other 2 to close up the north village move-out. I do not believe Custer had any idea of the village's size when he sent Reno down the valley. Next, the military mind-set in sending Reno rested on the belief the Indians-- surprised-- would make a break for it with nothing but a half-hearted defense, no organized resistance. Reno would sow panic. The initial plan was a follow-up attack by Custer and the other five companies. That part is virtually certain... or at least as certain as circumstantial evidence can make it. If Custer thought or believed two or three companies should attack the village center, what then? How would they turn? Left or right? Then what about their rear? In a case like that you need to protect the attacking force's rear. How would you do that? It is my belief Custer's tactical plan, viewed as a whole, was quite good; but it fell short, completely, in execution and control. If you view this part of the campaign-- June 22 to June 26 or 27th-- as the "strategic" element, and the attack by the 7th as one of its tactical parts-- Gibbon's column being another-- you can define the strategy as a pincer-type plan, hoping to catch the Indians between two major forces. The entire campaign was designed with that type of strategy in mind, though only hopefully as none of the three columns was expected to aide another. Custer employed-- or tried to-- the same idea once he made his right turn. Some people refer to this as an envelopment, which it is not. Best wishes, Fred.
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dgfred
Junior Member
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Post by dgfred on Feb 6, 2017 20:57:43 GMT -6
Giant tracks, scouts see and tell of big village, much lodge smoke, etc all point to a large village(s).
Briefed of the possible assembly of 1500+ warriors.
IMO all it takes is a scout/trooper on a ridge to see what is happening to Reno... might have saved a bunch of lives.
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Post by fred on Feb 7, 2017 11:05:06 GMT -6
Giant tracks, scouts see and tell of big village, much lodge smoke, etc all point to a large village(s). Briefed of the possible assembly of 1500+ warriors. IMO all it takes is a scout/trooper on a ridge to see what is happening to Reno... might have saved a bunch of lives. Obviously, you have never been there. Or if you have, you were standing on the wrong spot. First of all, no one-- least of all George Custer-- expected anything less than a "large" village. He wasn't blind: he could read tracks. His biggest problem was in not realizing the significance of what he was "reading." When you add to that the fact he ignored the admonishments from his scouts, it led to a classic underestimation of his enemy. He also did not fully expect the village to be united as it was, but strung out, à la Washita, along the LBH valley. Thus, his sending of Benteen off to the left. So while Custer read the signs, he mis-read what he saw. Second, GAC expected anywhere from 800 to 1,300 to 1,500 Indians... warriors. That much he expected, though others may not have, Fred Gerard, Mitch Boyer, and a whole bunch of scouts being exceptions. Third, Custer viewed the beginning of the Reno-valley fight from 3,411, not from SSR and not from Weir Point. From 3,411 you cannot see that far down the valley, so he still did not know how far the village extended. What would a "scout/trooper" have told him? As it was, he sent out a half-dozen men ahead of him for precisely that reason. Best wishes, Fred.
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dgfred
Junior Member
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Post by dgfred on Feb 28, 2017 15:37:24 GMT -6
1st you said- I do not believe Custer had any idea of the village's size
next- After the 'standing in the wrong spot' comment... nobody expected anything less than a large village.
Confusing.
Best wishes, Greg
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Post by alquedahunter on Nov 15, 2017 12:20:22 GMT -6
I sure don't know but will say that without some really good evidence, we'll never know for sure where he was shot.I must say that I lean heavily towards LSH even though I don't generally believe the heroic ending storys.But if he was shot there then, heck, it was heroic at that point.
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Post by noggy on Nov 16, 2017 4:20:21 GMT -6
I sure don't know but will say that without some really good evidence, we'll never know for sure where he was shot.I must say that I lean heavily towards LSH even though I don't generally believe the heroic ending storys.But if he was shot there then, heck, it was heroic at that point. The possibilities are endless, since the theories are endless. All theories regarding Ford D seem to agree that on their way back, the troops were harassed by Warriors and that at one point there was an extended halt for 20 minutes. Could have been because GAC got hit in the chest and thereby causing disarray amongst the rest of the officers who had to figure out their next move now that their commander was dying, dead or badly wounded. For some reason I too tend to believe he was shot in the chest nearer LSH, even though I don`t really know why.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 16, 2017 6:33:31 GMT -6
I think Custer knew from the trail he was following it would be a Big Village. What he didn't know is what other trails were made by others going to the same location. In Gordon Harper's book he has analysis chapters. Analysis #2 is how the Indians got the location. There were over 4,500 Indians that did not take the route that Custer followed if I recall correctly what is in the analysis. So the total number Indians would be underestimated even though the trail Custer followed would indicate a Big Village.
A Custer wounded at Ford B and then they are repulsed would fall back toward the regiment in my opinion. Why move north where the only expectation is running into more Indians in an advantage Indian terrain situation. The wounds described would have Custer dead or no longer in a leadership capacity. That puts Reno in command and what direction would they move to find Reno?
My current opinion is that Custer is in full attack mode and on offense until to late when he realizes there is a need to go on defense. That some elements of Custer's command moved north of LSH while still on offense makes more sense then they were pushed there with a dead or dying Custer to me. Since Martin rode back to Benteen the movement toward the remainder of the regiment would have been easier than moving north in my opinion.
That 10 separate carbines have been identified on Battle Ridge Extension (BRE) by cases found and 6 revolvers by cartridge cases are fact. 4 of the carbines can be placed at Calhoun. So there are various activities that could have the 4 carbines on Calhoun and BRE .
One theory is that all these weapons were captured after destroying the troopers at Calhoun and then these same Indians stayed together and moved past LSH out to BRE and fired the weapons and placed cartridges on the ground. I find that the least probable in my opinion but not impossible.
Another theory is that E&F fired at Calhoun earlier and then moved out BRE on offense and moving toward Ford Ds. After being opposed they moved back across Cemetery Ridge (CR). At some point Indians moved to the BRE location and fired at soldiers on CR. In one of two pictures of the 5th Infantry Gall had placed them firing in direction of BRE.
Another theory is that all 5 companies moved north with E&F moving across CR and CIL moving out BRE. When opposed they moved back toward LSH and were in the process of moving toward Calhoun with Calhoun leading the way and forming a skirmish line.
As most things with this battle there is never a finding of fact that ends the discussions. To me that is good thing or else I would have to find something else to do.
I think a reading of Scott and Bleed A Good Walk Around the Boundary and the artifacts found would help in making an informed opinion of whether there was soldiers north of LSH.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by brenda56 on Nov 17, 2017 7:27:58 GMT -6
In the pre-planning phase how involved was Custer in the strategic plan ? If he was significantly involved, and I believe he was, it's almost as if he was developing and manipulating the strategic plan in order to make him look good on the day of battle. A bit like defusing a bomb with seconds to spare a la Hollywood. Problem is on the final day of the shoot the actors got sidetracked by a scandal, or two!
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Post by shan on Nov 17, 2017 14:14:50 GMT -6
With regard to the stories about the state of Custer's body, I think we have to take a couple of things into consideration, Firstly, given that virtually none of the Indians had a clue as to who Custer was, when the killing eventually stopped, to them, he was just another dirty dusty dead soldier to do with what they will.
Apart from the two bullet wounds to his body that were noted by a number of those that viewed the body, either of which would have left him dead within minutes, there was little or no mention of any mutilations on the body until many years later, when Godfrey happened to mention in a letter to someone, that an arrow had been inserted into Custer’s penis, and, someone else, whose name I forget, talked about his thighs having being slashed.
If you look at the drawings that Red Horse made of the battle, and to a lesser extent those by Amos Bad Heart Bull, they were quite open about the mutilations that were inflicted on the dead, from the cutting off of heads and limbs, to the slashing and cutting inflicted on various other parts of the body, so it was quite possible that almost all the dead were badly mutilated in one way or another. Now if this were true, we have to ask ourselves why would Custer’s body be spared such degradation when others weren’t
When it comes to the stories we hear from the white side, we have to remember that we are in the Victorian era with all that implies, in which case, those viewing the scene were mindful of A. not upsetting the families of the dead, especially Elizabeth Custer, and B. preferring to keep the more salacious details out of the news papers. Remember, Custer was a star in his time, an icon, after all, he’d been a civil war hero, and was regarded as the golden boy, a long haired cavalier, so no one wanted to hear the grim reality of what happened to him at the end.
Personally, I find those stories of him lying there draped across a couple of his men looking as if he was taking a nap absolutely ludicrous. Just think about it, he was found naked excepting for a sock, so his body must have been manhandled by several warriors all of who were eager to get his clothing off him and search for any personal effects, before tossing it aside to move on to the next body. Whether he was mutilated by them or other warriors, or by that women who came later is impossible to say, but the stories of him looking as if he had just fallen asleep, is all a bit too King Arthur the dying King for my taste, but then that was how people thought at the time.
David Shan
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Post by herosrest on Nov 20, 2017 9:58:11 GMT -6
I think Custer knew from the trail he was following it would be a Big Village. What he didn't know is what other trails were made by others going to the same location. In Gordon Harper's book he has analysis chapters. Analysis #2 is how the Indians got the location. There were over 4,500 Indians that did not take the route that Custer followed if I recall correctly what is in the analysis. So the total number Indians would be underestimated even though the trail Custer followed would indicate a Big Village. A Custer wounded at Ford B and then they are repulsed would fall back toward the regiment in my opinion. Why move north where the only expectation is running into more Indians in an advantage Indian terrain situation. The wounds described would have Custer dead or no longer in a leadership capacity. That puts Reno in command and what direction would they move to find Reno? My current opinion is that Custer is in full attack mode and on offense until to late when he realizes there is a need to go on defense. That some elements of Custer's command moved north of LSH while still on offense makes more sense then they were pushed there with a dead or dying Custer to me. Since Martin rode back to Benteen the movement toward the remainder of the regiment would have been easier than moving north in my opinion. That 10 separate carbines have been identified on Battle Ridge Extension (BRE) by cases found and 6 revolvers by cartridge cases are fact. 4 of the carbines can be placed at Calhoun. So there are various activities that could have the 4 carbines on Calhoun and BRE . One theory is that all these weapons were captured after destroying the troopers at Calhoun and then these same Indians stayed together and moved past LSH out to BRE and fired the weapons and placed cartridges on the ground. I find that the least probable in my opinion but not impossible. Another theory is that E&F fired at Calhoun earlier and then moved out BRE on offense and moving toward Ford Ds. After being opposed they moved back across Cemetery Ridge (CR). At some point Indians moved to the BRE location and fired at soldiers on CR. In one of two pictures of the 5th Infantry Gall had placed them firing in direction of BRE. Another theory is that all 5 companies moved north with E&F moving across CR and CIL moving out BRE. When opposed they moved back toward LSH and were in the process of moving toward Calhoun with Calhoun leading the way and forming a skirmish line. As most things with this battle there is never a finding of fact that ends the discussions. To me that is good thing or else I would have to find something else to do. I think a reading of Scott and Bleed A Good Walk Around the Boundary and the artifacts found would help in making an informed opinion of whether there was soldiers north of LSH. Regards AZ Ranger Putting aside the fords for a while, Gordon Harper provided some remarkable insight and detail concerning the gathered tribal host which Custer and Reno attacked on the 25th. According to Companion, almost a half of the host left the camp on the 23rd, after the Solstice. That is 7-8,000 people including 1,000 fighters, moved out towards Powder River country moving south of Crow's Nest and undetected by 7th Cavalry. This is from the Minnieconjou tribal Historians. They also fairly well locate the stahed hoard of gold which Crazy Horse left buried. Tons of it, apparently.
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Post by noggy on Dec 22, 2017 17:38:06 GMT -6
Digression MK2:
In Philbrick`s "The Last Stand" he advocates that Tom Custer might have finished his wounded brother so that he would not suffer at the hands of the Indians. I imagine a close quarter gun shot would have went through GACs head, not stopping inside his skull. Yet all reports say he was shot through his left temple. What do we know of this? A hole and brains and blood coming out of a right external wound? If not, would this talk about a shot to the left temple and not just through his head indicate a battle shot (see, language barriers strike again)? My point is, could Philbrick and other`s theory be disproved or made more plausible
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 23, 2017 4:15:28 GMT -6
Digression MK2: In Philbrick`s "The Last Stand" he advocates that Tom Custer might have finished his wounded brother so that he would not suffer at the hands of the Indians. I imagine a close quarter gun shot would have went through GACs head, not stopping inside his skull. Yet all reports say he was shot through his left temple. What do we know of this? A hole and brains and blood coming out of a right external wound? If not, would this talk about a shot to the left temple and not just through his head indicate a battle shot (see, language barriers strike again)? My point is, could Philbrick and other`s theory be disproved or made more plausible There is very little chance to disprove most theories as long as some fact(s) are consistent with the theory. I don't think some of the handgun cartridges of the day were capable of exiting the skull even at close range. I would think though that black powder burns would be evident but with all the dust and blowing smoke who knows. Since there are two fatal wounds then the doctor looking at the body should be able to tell which was first and which really killed Custer. I thought I read somewhere that the bullet was retrieved from the brain. The chest wound would most likely be first but there should be some bruising evidence where the body was attempting to repair itself. What would have been good to know is was there any bleeding at the head. We studied wounds a lot because we have archery only hunts. So using a small caliber bullet and then shoving an arrow into it was attempted during the hunts by a few bad guys. The cuts of an arrow blade on an dead animal do not have the trauma as is found at an arrow entrance site in a living animal. We also had lead detection kits. Proof is almost impossible to find at the criminal law level. That being said at a criminal level in order to be convicted you must prove beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense does not have to disprove it. They may only have to provide an alternate theory which fits the same facts. So almost anything to do with this battle can have multiple theories as long as they are consistent with the facts . Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 23, 2017 4:19:42 GMT -6
I think Custer knew from the trail he was following it would be a Big Village. What he didn't know is what other trails were made by others going to the same location. In Gordon Harper's book he has analysis chapters. Analysis #2 is how the Indians got the location. There were over 4,500 Indians that did not take the route that Custer followed if I recall correctly what is in the analysis. So the total number Indians would be underestimated even though the trail Custer followed would indicate a Big Village. A Custer wounded at Ford B and then they are repulsed would fall back toward the regiment in my opinion. Why move north where the only expectation is running into more Indians in an advantage Indian terrain situation. The wounds described would have Custer dead or no longer in a leadership capacity. That puts Reno in command and what direction would they move to find Reno? My current opinion is that Custer is in full attack mode and on offense until to late when he realizes there is a need to go on defense. That some elements of Custer's command moved north of LSH while still on offense makes more sense then they were pushed there with a dead or dying Custer to me. Since Martin rode back to Benteen the movement toward the remainder of the regiment would have been easier than moving north in my opinion. That 10 separate carbines have been identified on Battle Ridge Extension (BRE) by cases found and 6 revolvers by cartridge cases are fact. 4 of the carbines can be placed at Calhoun. So there are various activities that could have the 4 carbines on Calhoun and BRE . One theory is that all these weapons were captured after destroying the troopers at Calhoun and then these same Indians stayed together and moved past LSH out to BRE and fired the weapons and placed cartridges on the ground. I find that the least probable in my opinion but not impossible. Another theory is that E&F fired at Calhoun earlier and then moved out BRE on offense and moving toward Ford Ds. After being opposed they moved back across Cemetery Ridge (CR). At some point Indians moved to the BRE location and fired at soldiers on CR. In one of two pictures of the 5th Infantry Gall had placed them firing in direction of BRE. Another theory is that all 5 companies moved north with E&F moving across CR and CIL moving out BRE. When opposed they moved back toward LSH and were in the process of moving toward Calhoun with Calhoun leading the way and forming a skirmish line. As most things with this battle there is never a finding of fact that ends the discussions. To me that is good thing or else I would have to find something else to do. I think a reading of Scott and Bleed A Good Walk Around the Boundary and the artifacts found would help in making an informed opinion of whether there was soldiers north of LSH. Regards AZ Ranger Putting aside the fords for a while, Gordon Harper provided some remarkable insight and detail concerning the gathered tribal host which Custer and Reno attacked on the 25th. According to Companion, almost a half of the host left the camp on the 23rd, after the Solstice. That is 7-8,000 people including 1,000 fighters, moved out towards Powder River country moving south of Crow's Nest and undetected by 7th Cavalry. This is from the Minnieconjou tribal Historians. They also fairly well locate the stahed hoard of gold which Crazy Horse left buried. Tons of it, apparently. Kind of blows holes in any theory that Custer didn't need to scout further up the Rosebud and approach from further south. So is that suggesting even without fighting and losing Custer allowed 7-8,000 Indians to escape to the south? Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Dec 23, 2017 9:37:21 GMT -6
Putting aside the fords for a while, Gordon Harper provided some remarkable insight and detail concerning the gathered tribal host which Custer and Reno attacked on the 25th. According to Companion, almost a half of the host left the camp on the 23rd, after the Solstice. That is 7-8,000 people including 1,000 fighters, moved out towards Powder River country moving south of Crow's Nest and undetected by 7th Cavalry. This is from the Minnieconjou tribal Historians. They also fairly well locate the stahed hoard of gold which Crazy Horse left buried. Tons of it, apparently. Kind of blows holes in any theory that Custer didn't need to scout further up the Rosebud and approach from further south. So is that suggesting even without fighting and losing Custer allowed 7-8,000 Indians to escape to the south? Regards AZ Ranger It's interesting, isn't it. Harper is the only published source as far as I know and what a pity that he didn't survive to publish. It must have taken a significant effort by him to get the information he did about Spotted Elk people and Big Foot's adventures. linkIt is a far more interesting history than that of the Cheyennes and has garnered little attention to date. There were two Crazy Horse's fighting. The father and the son. This explains very much. The companion book is seriously underestimated and probably the most important publication since Whittaker. Excerpted, ' At this time Crazy Horse’s aunt 1, Good Looking Woman, who he considered his second mother, started to get sick. It was decided for her to return to the agency, as the elder who had the medicine to cure her was still there. Part of the Cheyenne with Talks About Him and Morning Star’s daughter left with them, back to the Devils Tower camp. Morning Star left control of the camp in the hands of Hairy Hand. For this, Morning Star was later dismissed from the position he held. Also leaving were a lot of the elder woman and men, and children. This entourage left in the night of June 23 traveling only at night, and in the process, avoided the cavalry patrols out looking for any and all hostiles. There were about 7,000-8,000 people in this group, virtually halving the camp, but leaving the bulk of the warriors. Protecting this group were about 1,000 warriors acting as security. They went to the Powder River country, back to the camp west of Devils Tower, known to the family as the Twin Buttes camp.
From here they branched out into separate smaller family groups making their way to the different agencies. Good Looking Woman’s family made it as far as the east slope of Bear Butte and there she passed away, before reaching the agency. She had received word on the 25th of the fight on the Greasy Grass and died on the morning of the 26th, at the time the morning star shone from the east. On her death bed, she was sung a victory song. She was hastily buried on the east slope of Bear Butte in a sitting position, and the rest of the family made their way to the sub-station at Fort Bennett.
Mid afternoon on the 23rd Custer found the Sun Dance grounds at Deer Medicine Rock. He kicked over the Sun Dance altar and proclaimed that this is not his way, meaning the prayer and cultural way of the Lakotas. From this place Custer and the 7 th cavalry force marched following the Rosebud Creek trail, all the way to Busby and found the remains of the earlier camp. At this time Custer halted the column and rested the men and horses. Sending out his scouts, west, and south, they noticed the heavy trail of lots of animals across the prairie heading in a westerly direction. The scouts that went west eventually turned south and rendezvoused with the scouts that had set out going south. This rendezvous point was at the Crow’s Nest, where the scouts first saw the main encampment and it stretched a good 6 miles. The scouts looking thru spy glasses saw what looked like a constant movement. What they were looking at was the massive horse herd of the camp. Where the horses were today is located by the railroad tracks that run parallel with I-90 past the battle field. The scouts left two of their number there at the Crow’s Nest and the rest returned to the Busby camp of the cavalry and Custer.1 This explains Iron Cedar's (Julia Clown) absense from the camp of the 25th June. Iron Lightning Ziebach Cedar
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 24, 2017 9:07:38 GMT -6
HR
I think you have missed the point of what is published. Tori Harper wanted all the resources published that her father used in writing the book. There was to much information so the resources are in electronic only format. Gordie went through all of it an formed opinions of what to use and what was not but thought it important to have it all. As far the who was there and how they got there Gordie had finished in the analysis section of the book under Analysis 2.
In his plan for meeting of the group he called ICE were those individuals that were staying at the 7th Ranch in 2010. There were some locations that he wanted to firm up with GPS designations and some Cheyennes to meet. I have saved everything he sent me including handwritten chapters.
So anyone one can use what he used to form opinions but I think we have Gordie's in Analysis 2 in regards to the numbers of Indians and the route they took to the LBH.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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