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Post by noggy on Jul 23, 2018 9:04:29 GMT -6
Hello and welcome.
I don`t think so, for many reasons. I believe the five companies moved North by free will, and that the separation around Calhoun Hill was organized. This is not something which would happen if the commanding officer was dead, dying or in other ways put out of action. Dragging him up to LSH would be a pretty strange thing to do.
All the best, Noggy
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 24, 2018 6:17:17 GMT -6
I just joined the site. I've read books about Custer beginning in the Civil War through his endeavors out West. Being Native American my opinions might be "slanted", but one is ever in the quest for the truth. Was Custer shot at the Ford? Any ideas on that subject? Don't worry too much about slanted views, many respected writers have agenda and they make money on their slanted views. I agree with Noggy's point of view. I for one think the Cheyenne chased GAC's ass back from further north across CR until he was fixed and killed at LSH Cheyenne to his front Sioux to the west, or generally oriented that way.
By the way welcome to the board pamelaxyz, hope you don't mind if I refer to you as PZ.
Regards, Tom
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Post by custermania on Aug 21, 2021 16:43:33 GMT -6
GAC shot at Ford b I’ve heard both that it was a shoulder wound and not deadly and it was deadly. It would make sense you are right to full back with the company. But let’s say he was hurt but still able To go on. The Indians are now coming in masses. I just can’t see even A wounded GAC give up. Imo he knew the only way to win was take the gamble and try to beat Indians to Ford D to capture the others and save everybody. Again just going off how the Custers thought and personality. I think that is just important. Remember Tom Custer got shot in the face and still killed a man and captured a flag. He still wasn’t done. It took GAC to arrest him to stop. Also 15 so different accounts and the last anyone seen GAC alive was at Ford B. Maybe wounded dead who knows. Maybe he told Tom it’s only way to race to Ford D. The Indians did say there was a a race to Ford D
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Post by coverup on Sept 2, 2021 20:49:12 GMT -6
Custer had two wounds: a chest and head wound. More than likely the chest wound was the one that incapacitated him and the head wound was a coup d'etat by an Indian or possibly a fellow soldier to keep him from being taken alive by Indians. For Custer to be shot in the chest he more than likely would either have to be standing or riding his horse. I can't imagine him standing around and making a target of himself while fighting. That leaves the possibility of being hit while riding his horse. That opens up the controversy of whether he was hit early in the fight while attempting to cross the ford/river and being brought back to LSH. If so it could tell us why it seemed that Custer had the village in his grasp but failed to do so.
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Post by coverup on Sept 2, 2021 20:51:10 GMT -6
If he had all five companies with him at Ford D and was wounded or killed, would they have withdrawn to LSH and then possibly Calhoun gone south to in some way look for or assist in the expected arrival of Benteen? Could this have caused the battlefield to look as it did? I hope this is not too remedial for this board.Welcome Boss If you are hard pressed you do not weaken your force to seek assistance. The configuration of the markers do not support a 5 troop advance to Ford D. A 2 troop advance to Ford D gives rise to more questions than it answers. Ford D is an illusion.The only difference between a ford and a non ford is probably no more than a foot of water. I'm away from home at the moment so without times or maps . When I return home I will check times and distances involved in the scenario suggesting that the vast bulk of the Indians retrograded towards Custer immediately on Reno's retreat. Or if anyone else wants to research it .....time and distance from Custer's column at the point when Reno departs. Cheers all Richard
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Post by noggy on Sept 3, 2021 4:06:38 GMT -6
Custer had two wounds: a chest and head wound. More than likely the chest wound was the one that incapacitated him and the head wound was a coup d'etat by an Indian or possibly a fellow soldier to keep him from being taken alive by Indians. For Custer to be shot in the chest he more than likely would either have to be standing or riding his horse. I can't imagine him standing around and making a target of himself while fighting. That leaves the possibility of being hit while riding his horse. That opens up the controversy of whether he was hit early in the fight while attempting to cross the ford/river and being brought back to LSH. If so it could tell us why it seemed that Custer had the village in his grasp but failed to do so. Hi, coverup! Personally, I'm veeery sceptical when it comes to putting much weight on trying to "make sense" of battlefield wounds. One instance which does make sense is Keogh being shot in the leg/thigh while mounted, as there was said to be a matching wound in Comanche's side. That would indicate him and perhaps even his whole company being on the move, unless he was crazy trying lo lead his company ounted under fire, or so unlucky that he was hit from The warriors shot at dead soldiers with both arrows and bullets, so it is by no means unrealistic that GAC either riding or standing somehwere around LSH was hit in the head from range, died, after which his men brought the body closer to the "top" of LSH. Later on, when LSH is swarmed, some triumphant warrior takes a pop shot (right word?) at the dead officer, hitting him in the chest. In short, there are a hell of a lot ways to get a couple of bullets lodged in your body during a battle many we probably can't even imagine. All the best, Noggy
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Post by herosrest on Sept 3, 2021 9:00:40 GMT -6
There is an Indian account of a mounted Officer who shot a Sioux and Cheyenne before himself being killed whilst covering eight or so dismounted men, if I remember correctly. It might have been Brave Bear's account. The event is backed up by a pictograph in the Spotted Wolf Collection, again if memory serves and the dead horse or horses were..... Grey! It is early evidence that the dead became target practice, toys for children, suffered the wrath of female griefs. In an interview given by Sitting Bull, to Edgerley I think, Sitting Bull's young son or other, shot Custer in the head. The interesting thing about the head wound is comment it was oozing when the body was found which suggests that perhaps Benteen undertook a mercy killing.
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Post by noggy on Sept 3, 2021 11:04:31 GMT -6
The interesting thing about the head wound is comment it was oozing when the body was found which suggests that perhaps Benteen undertook a mercy killing. Smells of a tragic suicide, just minutes before being saved. Noggy
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Post by 1ralph on Jun 12, 2022 14:50:44 GMT -6
I am new to this board but have been reading as a guest for a few years. I have no military experience and have only read about six books on Custer and the Little Big Horn, one of them was Fred's book. I am clearly in over my head on this board. Early on in my reading I believed the White Cow Bull story of Custer being shot at Ford B. That issue has been discussed several times on the board. I now wonder if maybe Custer was shot early on as he approached or attempted to cross at Ford D. If he had all five companies with him at Ford D and was wounded or killed, would they have withdrawn to LSH and then possibly Calhoun gone south to in some way look for or assist in the expected arrival of Benteen? Could this have caused the battlefield to look as it did? I hope this is not too remedial for this board. Like you I have read a couple books on Custer and Big Horn. I believe that Custer did not like Captain Benteen and he did not want him to have any glory in the attack so he sent him on a wild goose chase to look for Indians. Maj Reno attack was to draw out the Indians to make them believe that this was a major attack while Custer would do the primary attack from High ground. After Custer realize the size of the village, I believe that he divided his battalion into two wings to have a wider coverage and to support the second wave attack from high ground to take the pressure off of Reno. This tactic became worthless, as you know, because Reno retreated from his defensive positions from the tree line. Reno retreat the Indian village to focus all of their resources on the second attack. This resulted in Myles Keogh, who commanded the second wing to retreat like Reno that cost to lose as many men as Reno. It is likely that the left wing support Keogh retreat. I believe this is when Custer became wounded through the chest. In short, when Custer was hit command and control were lost as the regiment became leaderless as to where to move next. I believe the left wing moved to nearest high ground, and that was Custer's hill so the doctor could treat Custer's wounds. The right wing followed Custer's wing and stop to set up a skirmish line to support the left wing when it stopped at Custer Hill. In short, has Custer not been wounded. I am sure that he would have led the Regiment to Benteen and safety. Instead, someone made a bad call and went in the wrong direction. Since the ground where Custer's hill is full of dead space with little cover, it was easy for the Indians to move in. First, they killed of the guys who were holding the horses which cause them to stampede. Second, as the battle progress as Custer soldiers ran out of ammo they begin to close in on people who had ammo. This I believe caused the line to collapse from the right wing. Then when the left wing overrun as a result of running out of ammo. The survivors retreat to the right wing. This result enabled the Indians to get within 200 meters of the right wing and Custer Hill. The primary advantage for the Indians was terrain and weapons to keep it short. These weapons included Remington Repeating Rifles, which could fire 13 rounds in thirty seconds where Custer soldiers; would be lucky to fire four during a thirty second period. Second was the open ground with dead space. This gave cover to the Indians in their attack, and Custer Soldiers had no place for cover, unless they killed their horses, thus taking away their only means for escape. In the end, on Custer Hill there was no last stand where there was a good fight. During the 1990s, the ground was surveyed by archeologist, and they found no spent ammo cartilages on Custer Hill. Instead, they found a few live ammo shells and bullets fired from repeating rifles. Sadly enough everyone was cut down from arrows to repeating rifles that were fired from the Indians. For those who ran from Custer Hill, they likely ran after Custer killed himself. This may explain why the Regimental Sgt Major made a run for it before he was killed by the Indians. I believe the second wing was formed when Custer could hear that Reno men were in contact with the enemy. I believe once Custer saw the village he realize that Keogh wing needed to assault of the village to take pressure off of Reno. Custer determine that he needed to take his wing to the end of the village to secure hostages to end the fight in his favor. He then left Keogh wing and headed to Custer Hill to station himself their to have a full view of the battle and deployed his wing to go out hostages at the end of the village. Everyone in Custer's wing knew his location and when his wing collapse they knew where to retreat to his location on Custer Hill. I believe that Custer was wounded in the Chest on Custer Hill and he shot himself in the head because he couldn't live with himself for failing.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 13, 2022 1:41:05 GMT -6
Hi Ralph.
Bold statements there my friend.
As evidence shows, no major engagement was made around Ford B, but we do have evidence of a lot of firing in MTC, mostly from luce ridge and N/C ridge.
So where was the Keogh Wing going to make its attack.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 13, 2022 1:44:51 GMT -6
According to John stands in timber, the soldiers crossed over from N/C ridge to battle ridge and moved north.
If Custer left Keogh on battle ridge then this would be a waste of the rump of his force. Why would an aggressive commander like Custer do such a thing, why split his force, why put troops in penny packets. It does look like his battalion was split whilst retrograding south after being hit by heavy cheyenne attacks bear Ford D.
Ian
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Post by tubman13 on Jun 13, 2022 4:20:39 GMT -6
Ralph, Remington repeating rifles, firing 13 rounds? You say you have read a couple of books, you might want read some more or re-read the ones you have.
Custer did not stop at LSH, he retreated to it, from his northern romp. The only skirmish line on the Custer area of the battlefield was by Calhoun's troop.
Ian, bold, to say the least.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 13, 2022 13:32:40 GMT -6
Yeah Tom, another point is Custer setting up a command post on LSH to oversee both wings in their attacks, but as far as I know, Custer always led from the front, so why would he be miles away from his units with no way of issuing orders? I thought GAC wanted to be where the action was.
Ian
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Post by Oye Hota on Jun 15, 2022 2:04:12 GMT -6
I believe that, they were laying in ambush when they came down. Custer was on of the first to die.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 15, 2022 4:53:16 GMT -6
Yes, I have also read similar from cheyenne accounts. They say that they lay in wait along the benches, just watching the columns coming down from the high ground trying to reach the river. About Custer being hit first, well many say that this accured at ford B, but I think if it did happen then it was Ford D. A wounded Custer, would make sense with Tom Custer being at his side and bad decision making by other officers.
Ian
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