shaw
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Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Nov 9, 2015 16:41:37 GMT -6
Beth, good question. This is conjecture of course but Benteen had scouted ahead and seen that Reno was in the timber in the valley he would have gone to his aid. Oh, there's that scouting thing again. Game Grade on scouting on June 25th. -D.
Benteen was many things but stupid was not one of them. If he had known that Reno was in trouble (scouting again) that's where he would have gone. How do we know? Because when he did find Reno in trouble on Reno's Hill, he went directly to his aid. He does not advance past GO (Monopoly talk). He did not march on trying to find Custer. They only march on later when Weir heads north. They see what's up, get attacked and retreatback to the hill.
Or...imagine no Reno on the hilltop. He's still down in the valley in the timber obeying orders to the last. Benteen does not know Reno is down there. He would have simply followed Custer's trail along the bluffs.
Custer's intent was to have Benteen support his movement with companies C,E,F,I,L. How that would have happened we can't be sure. I am sure that Custer was not thinking of Reno at all. He wanted Benteen to link up with his battalion.
Custer: Only thinking of Custer. Reno: Custer has abandoned me. I don't like Custer anyway. I'm getting out of here. Benteen: I don't like Custer either. Here's Reno in trouble. I'll help him out. Weir: I like Custer. I'm going to find him.
Pretty base, I know, but motivation sometimes overrides duty. Custer was counting on support from officers who really didn't like him. Custer took all of his gang (minus Weir) with him. Weir joined Custer and his gang as soon as he could drink himself into oblivion around six months later.
No one in charge on Reno Hill except Weir was motivated to go find out what had happened to their commander.
How do we know? Even when the NA's left the Valley for the Big Horn Mountains, the 7 companies under Reno and Benteen sat on the mountain and didn't make a move northward to see what had happened. Okay, you have wounded. So send three companies or even two. Send ONE company. They sent no one until Terry shows up the day after. Motivation....
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Post by magpie on Nov 9, 2015 16:46:38 GMT -6
I don't think you can take from GAC responsibility for very poorly written orders. Magpie, I just took this from your post in order to make a point. I agree with you that Custer is responsible, but not for the note itself, Lt Cooke wrote that oxymoron of a note, but for a different reason. Among Custers blunders that day this often goes unnoticed. That is, who he sent the message with. I understand that Martini was his orderly, OK fine, send him on a beer run. However, you do not send someone with the most important message of your life that does not have a firm grip on the English language. My guess is that when Custer was giving Martini the message, the poor soul looked like a deer in the headlights. Cooke saw this and realized that Martini probably didnt understand all or any of Custers orders, that was the reason for the note in the first place.Custer should have chosen someone else to carry the message, but he didnt, the rest is as they say History. Be Well Dan all good thoughts but Custer chose both adj. Cooke and messenger Martini. One could say that's all he had to work with however as you point out the importance so great he could have written the order himself.
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Post by magpie on Nov 9, 2015 17:11:22 GMT -6
Benteen in RCOI made it clear he wasn't going down into the Valley. One can conclude he did not think he was ordered to do so. Quite the opposit. There were three instructions in that note: (1) come; (2) be quick; and (3) bring the packs. Put yourself in Benteen's place. He received the note less than a mile from the river. He heard firing. He rode to the river to investigate what he was hearing. It would be a normal assumption-- a quite a valid one-- that the idiot Martini would inform Benteen where to go... but he didn't. Because of the proximity to the river and the immediacy gunfire generates, it would be normal as well to check that out before doing anything else. I would assume-- with less validity, possibly-- Benteen would then turn around and ask Martini for Custer's location, but before he did such a thing, he saw some Indian scouts who directed him up the bluffs. That is what he did. So... summarizing... (1) Benteen came; (2) he was quick about it from the beginning, even before he was told... then again, that is what a good officer does; and (3) he knew precisely where the packs were, so he fulfilled that requirement as well. And while you are all at it, someone may want to figure out how to speed along those packs faster than they were going. The timelines in Strategy explain all of this, quite well, I think. Best wishes, Fred. I'm getting there. I always like to draw my own conclusions before looking at someone elses. Yes I am stubborn but it makes sense at least to me. I believe our mule skinner is doing his best. If we knew what was needed first we could put it on a few horses and move forward at a better pace. I think though Custer is also afraid the baggage train will be raided as there appears to be Indians everywhere. The clock is running and there is no way Benteen can stay with the packs and deliver them anywhere in time to change any result (Reno or Custer). If he separated himself (accepting his assertion that as long as he stands between the Indians he see's and the packs he's with them) from the packs then he would expect a court martial. How the hell would it look if he ran into the Valley and the Indians dry gulched the pack train while he was engaged. Nobody has ammo, etc and all die. A demonstration on the knoll might have helped Reno. Depends on timing and Fred's got the stop watch. I think I'll let him keep it. Don't remember if Benteen saw the first skirmish line but do remember he was well in advance of his troop as he scoped the situation out while on the knoll at Ford A. I think Custer was able to tell quite a bit by the sounds of firing. His ears aren't ringing like Reno and his men's ears are ringing from the muzzle blasts. He could hear or the younger men could hear the carbine fire, hear it become silent, then hear the colt's and Indian firing then as the Indians see Benteen and turn away the relative silence with just sniping. I think it's telling the tale quite well. Before someone jumps me on it: I am adding he can also hear the firing grow faint not grow stronger. Meaning Reno is not moving forward and into the Village but back.
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Post by Beth on Nov 9, 2015 17:17:06 GMT -6
I don't think you can take from GAC responsibility for very poorly written orders. Magpie, I just took this from your post in order to make a point. I agree with you that Custer is responsible, but not for the note itself, Lt Cooke wrote that oxymoron of a note, but for a different reason. Among Custers blunders that day this often goes unnoticed. That is, who he sent the message with. I understand that Martini was his orderly, OK fine, send him on a beer run. However, you do not send someone with the most important message of your life that does not have a firm grip on the English language. My guess is that when Custer was giving Martini the message, the poor soul looked like a deer in the headlights. Cooke saw this and realized that Martini probably didnt understand all or any of Custers orders, that was the reason for the note in the first place.Custer should have chosen someone else to carry the message, but he didnt, the rest is as they say History. Be Well Dan Dan your point makes me wonder if Custer didn't realize that Martini was carrying the most important message of Custer's life. Custer might of at the time just considered it is a sort of standard order requesting Benteen to take a certain course of action--not a panicked call for help that so many people read. In other words, at the time Custer sent the message, he was not under pressure, nor was he worried that he was going to find himself in the fight of his life. Beth
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Post by benteen on Nov 9, 2015 17:21:43 GMT -6
all good thoughts but Custer chose both adj. Cooke and messenger Martini. One could say that's all he had to work with however as you point out the importance so great he could have written the order himself. Magpie, Thanks for the response. My fault not yours, I know what I want to say but sometimes foul it up. My point was not that Custer should have written the note, but rather if he had used a different messenger, there would have been no need for any note. The messenger could have told Benteen what Custer wanted. In addition, when Benteen asked what was going on, he probably would have gotten more information then "They skedadling" Be Well Dan PS...I dont want anyone to think I am knocking Pvt Martini. He was a brave man and turned out to be a fine soldier as he retired a Sgt. He was just the wrong man for this assignment. That was not his fault, but Custers.
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Post by wild on Nov 9, 2015 17:23:09 GMT -6
What would the message have said if Custer wanted Benteen to come on and bring the packs and be quick ?
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Post by magpie on Nov 9, 2015 17:29:20 GMT -6
What would the message have said if Custer wanted Benteen to come on and bring the packs and be quick ? A trick question? 1.)Benteen secure the packs and bring them to me with all haste;2.) Benteen secure the packs and bring them to Reno in the bottoms with all haste;3.) Benteen bring 4 cases of ammunition to me with all haste at all costs. Etc. Etc.
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Post by Beth on Nov 9, 2015 17:40:59 GMT -6
Beth, good question. This is conjecture of course but Benteen had scouted ahead and seen that Reno was in the timber in the valley he would have gone to his aid. Oh, there's that scouting thing again. Game Grade on scouting on June 25th. -D. Benteen was many things but stupid was not one of them. If he had known that Reno was in trouble (scouting again) that's where he would have gone. How do we know? Because when he did find Reno in trouble on Reno's Hill, he went directly to his aid. He does not advance past GO (Monopoly talk). He did not march on trying to find Custer. They only march on later when Weir heads north. They see what's up, get attacked and retreatback to the hill. First I want to clarify something about my own feelings about LBH because lately because there have been a number of new members and I haven't been an active poster. I believe that every single person fought to the best of their ability that day--both on the US and NA side. I don't believe that there was intentional grudge settling or malfeasance. There may of been a few shirkers, but some people just break down and are unable to handle crisis situations. I believe that the side who made the fewest mistakes and used the field the best, won the battle and that the study of LBH is about understanding the mistakes made and how the terrain itself was used as an advantage or became a disadvantage. I need clarification on a point. Did Custer and Reno traveled down on opposite sides of the creek? Did they ever once they separated travel in such a way that they would only leave one combined trail? (Like one following behind the other by a few minutes) Did Benteen follow Reno's trail or Custers? I am sure it's all in Fred's book but at the moment I am unable to access it because I am on a kid's computer. As for why no one from Reno Hill sent someone after the NA left the valley? I have several ideas why they would not. 1. it would weaken their position and they had no reason to believe the NA warriors had not stated behind. 2. They thought they were the lost party--the one in need of a rescue. This might be my mommy brain at play but we always told our kids if they got lost, they were to stay put and let us --the parent come back and find them. Otherwise they would only make the getting lose worse by wondering in unknown directions. 3. Pure exhaustion and needing time to recover some before deciding what to do. They had to physically and emotionally drained by the time the NA pulled away. I would not have been surprised if the majority of them after taking care of food and water just fell into a deep sleep.
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Post by benteen on Nov 9, 2015 17:54:31 GMT -6
What would the message have said if Custer wanted Benteen to come on and bring the packs and be quick ? Richard, Excellent question. My guess would be that since there are two different commands, that there would be two orders. Perhaps he would tell the messenger to go to Col Benteen and tell him to be quick, Reno engaged, I need him to support him with his battalion. Then, go back to the pack train and tell Capt McDougal I want him to bring up the pack train ASAP. Just a guess. Be Well Dan
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Post by Beth on Nov 9, 2015 18:30:14 GMT -6
I'll take a couple of shots. First if it was a general command to stop Benteen from his valley searching and join the rest.
"Benteen, hostiles located. Proceed to command for further orders. Direct packs to same location."
Or a more urgent message. "Hostiles located, Detach ammo from packs, proceed to join command on bluffs at once."
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Post by benteen on Nov 9, 2015 18:51:20 GMT -6
Dan your point makes me wonder if Custer didn't realize that Martini was carrying the most important message of Custer's life. Custer might of at the time just considered it is a sort of standard order requesting Benteen to take a certain course of action--not a panicked call for help that so many people read. In other words, at the time Custer sent the message, he was not under pressure, nor was he worried that he was going to find himself in the fight of his life. Beth Beth, You make a good point, that is entirely possible. I think the "Come on" "Be quick" gives the impression that this was an urgent message. But, then again, Custer didnt write the message Cooke did. So you could as I said be correct. Be Well Dan
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Post by fred on Nov 9, 2015 19:16:08 GMT -6
... all good thoughts but Custer chose both adj. Cooke and messenger Martini. One could say that's all he had to work with however as you point out the importance so great he could have written the order himself. No, no, no...!! Cooke was regimental adjutant and an extremely capable and well-thought-of officer. That would have been standing operating procedure: you issue an order through your adjutant: he maintains the written record and signs the written orders. Cooke-- not Custer-- would have chosen Martini. If you count Kanipe as a messenger-- and even if he was not, he fulfilled the role of one-- Martini was the 4th messenger Custer sent out after crossing the divide. Martini was the only one given a written note. Sharon was the regimental sergeant major and was born in England; Voss was born in Germany, but was in his 3rd enlistment and was the chief trumpeter, so he spoke good English; Kanipe was born in the U. S.; but Martini had only been in this country since 1873, and he spoke only broken English, so that-- in my opinion-- is why he was given a written note. And Cooke would have selected him, not Custer. Martini was merely another orderly and Custer had several of them that day. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Nov 9, 2015 19:29:50 GMT -6
First if it was a general command to stop Benteen from his valley searching and join the rest. Correct. And something Benteen had already decided to do. Remember where he was located when he received the note. I believe the only "urgency" was as Dark Cloud always claimed: "Come on. Big village. Be quick." It does not say "come quick"; it says, "be quick." DC and I both believe[d] there is a difference in urgency between the two words. "Be quick" simply tells the addressee to hurry along, do not tarry. "Come quick" implies urgency... maybe even dire urgency. When that note was sent, there was no dire urgency. Reno was advancing in the valley; Indians appeared to be pulling back; the village seemed to be fleeing; and Custer had not even fired a single shot. Where is the dire urgency? To me, that note was more of an "administrative" order than a plea for help. Also... I reject, categorically... and this really bugs me because it leads people astray with seriously false impressions... the business about ammo and detaching it from the packs. If anything, Custer would have wanted the additional men and the packs corralled. Remember, McDougall and Mathey had more men in the packs and rear guard than Benteen had in his battalion. And in reality, not counting the scouts, those guys had slightly more men than Reno had. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Nov 9, 2015 19:48:09 GMT -6
Did Custer and Reno traveled down on opposite sides of the creek? Yes. All the way until Custer approached the lone tepee. That is when Reno was ordered over to the creek's north side. Yes. Up to what I have termed, "Middle Knoll." Reno turned left just before the knoll (around its east side) and recrossed the creek; Custer continued on, probably just to the western end of the knoll where he ran into Cooke. Custer's, until it turned off to the right. It was the larger trail and it was also a lodgepole trail making it clearly distinguishable from Reno's shod trail. I would have followed the larger trail: it would stand to reason-- if I were reading signs and saw the split-- the larger tracks and the larger trail would have been the one Custer followed. If I were Benteen, I would not have taken the subsidiary trail. I assume you mean after Custer, not back into the valley.... First of all, not all the Indians ever left the valley: read De Rudio's accounts. Second, Benteen had to chase Indians when he arrived on the hilltop and I am quite sure there were enough warriors-- though dispersed-- between Benteen-Reno and Custer, to make any foray north rather dangerous. Benteen set up a perimeter, and if you notice, when Weir moved north he only went so far and when Edgerly followed with D Company (he got the farthest north), Weir motioned for him to come back. I am quite sure any Indians to Eagerly's front moved away rather quickly. So if anything, Weir performed the "scouting mission." As for its immediacy, I think I would rather consolidate first, then send out scouts so I at least have a general grip on things. I wouldn't want men scurrying all over the place. In my opinion, this was what Reno did wrong: once on the hill he relinquished control and that is what Reno should be nailed for. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by montrose on Nov 9, 2015 19:54:10 GMT -6
1. Situation. Reno was attacking an estimated 1500 Indians in the valley. A massive Indian counterattack of an estimated 900 Indians had swept around Reno's open flank and were between Reno and Ford A.
GAC had received 4 messengers (Reno's two and Custer's own Cooke and Keogh, who had been sent forward by GAC for the very purpose of providing situational awareness) notifying him of the valley fight. This should have automatically caused the main body to support the advanced guard. That is how movement to contact works, and we see it in thousands of actions in the ACW and Indian Wars.
GAC personally saw the valley situation from 3411. We no longer have to worry about what scouts and regimental scouting and combat elements told him, he saw it himself.
If Benteen and the followon pack train entered the valley, they would be destroyed in detail. The defeat would be near Ford A, 1.5 miles south of the timber position. The regiment was badly scattered and heading into the enemy main body piecemeal.
2. BLUF. LTC Custer intended the Benteen and McDougall detachments to follow him east of the river, and not enter the valley at Ford A.
a. Come quick. This means you come to me. If he meant you go to Reno, he would have said so.
b. Bring pacs. Packs means the pack train. That term was still being used for unit supply trains into the 1980s, from my personal experience in numerous operations at Graf and Hohenfels. If Benteen followed Custer immediately, the Indians would be closer to the pack train than any combat element of the 7th, and McDougall would have no reason to believe he was facing the enemy main body by himself.
c. Bring ammunition is a long since debunked and ridiculous assumption. The ammunition is the pack train was for sustainment. It meant the 7th could fight a battle on a given day, and continue to pursue for a second action on another day. We saw this in August 73. The 7th was not manned, trained or equipped for an incombat resupply. How would this work? When had they, or any post ACW unit in any action, done such an awkward and weird procedure.
The basic load for a soldier was 20 rounds, carried in the army issue container. the 7th was carrying 5 basic loads per man. I don't want to waste more time on this in this thread. We can address it in a separate thread, as we have hundreds of times before.
d. The Keogh battalion. I can find no explanation for the Keogh Bn on the south end of Battle Ridge without believing Custer wanted Benteen and McDougall to go there.
e. I think we overlook the main point of Custer's order. Reno was on his own. He would receive no help from the regiment in any way, shape or form until after Custer massed the regiment at Battle Ridge, and did something in that area. This means nightfall, likely the next day.
Build your own timeline on speed of pack train to Battle Ridge, and then time to assault a village of 1,000 lodges with 6-8000 inhabitants.
f. I believe that when LTC Custer saw that the Indian main body was moving between Reno and Ford A, he focused on the fact that they would have great trouble returning to the village until they beat Reno. SO rather than support his advance guard, he decided to move towards the village, and away from the enemy main body.
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