|
Post by magpie on Nov 8, 2015 20:00:55 GMT -6
Thank you for the PHD thesis will parose it, Thanks
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Nov 8, 2015 20:08:22 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Nov 8, 2015 21:08:12 GMT -6
Ducemus
Hi magpie, i'll see if I can pull some thoughts together. It's been a silly day.
Custer needed to understand what he had gotten Reno into, and adjust. This he did with hostiles in his rear sirting around NC. The John Two Moon accounts give contact early with the cavalry being followed by Indians, unless the interpreter confused it. There were a small party running ahead of the troops also - five Sioux who joined Cheyennes at the river.
Delay was Custer's perogative in that he was the CO and way too many people play games with this. His declared intention at the OM was to attack, and attack the village which appeared to be moving until Custer saw it from the bluffs, accompanied by Martin. In my reading of stuff, Gall saw him up there, then. Martini as orderly trumpeter was gone, later on. This may have been wishful thinking by the Pioneer Press reporter or someone in 1886, but is the 'given'.
Delay equals sacrificing Reno's command and that criticism lays squarely at Benteen's feet in watering horses whilst his regiment were in battle. There are huge problems still with the oblique march and Benteen's silence once Whittaker got started up.
Reno was not going to go galloping into a pile of tepees. A hord of hostiles managed to evolve themselves out of the camps to confront him. Two Moon for example, did not arrive until the retreat was under way as can be guaged from the Wooden Leg account.
The retreat was a mistake in military terms. Reno recieved no new orders. His story is emphatic about that and as a subordinate, under orders andf in combat as an element of a regiment commanded by Custer - he was under orders and those orders were disobeyed when he retreated without permission or giving notice to his commander. That he had an independent command, in the context given to defend him, is rubbish.
In regards Reno's lawyers, the brief if you like, was very simple - discredit Whittaker's analysis of the time of day ie, the time of the place. This was done and eventually the board of the Court realised this, and recalled Wallace to explain himself. It was not taken further.
Reno could have held the timber until Benteen arrived, unless the timing was really screwed up and I thought that a long time. However, it is apparent from Maguire in his report, that Benteen was near the village at 2pm. He obliqued for an hour and a half, was in Long Otter Creek and returned to the main trail. He travelled a maximum 10 miles less time allowed for watering horses. I'm not going to argue over that, it is simple fact. He could have reached Reno in the valley.
Benteen sent the Ree scout Stab or Stabbed to Custer, with a message. The scout rode to the end of the bluffs and back to join the pony stealers. Martin was then sent to Benteen. We have no record other than Goldin, of orders sent to Reno. Thus Reno was not recalled and Benteen was hurried up to join Reno, and take the pacck train and rearguard - all available manpower. Maximum strength commited to the valley attack,ith Custer rightfully holding the right of his military line to commit as he saw fit. He was in command, not Reno, not Benteen, not McDougall.
The idea of sacrificing Reno came from Kuhlman and he had some very strange ideas, besides some good ones also. SSL is a real problem because accepting it means Keogh was sent to Calhoun.
Scott's presentation of the Pitsch finds, confirms Vaughn's analysis and findings.
The real question about Reno, is whether the hostiles released from his front, contributed materially to Custer's........... lets face it, massacre.
Sleep time. Regards.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Nov 9, 2015 5:49:12 GMT -6
HR owns his own wavelength, BABC (Blame Anybody But Custer). Truer words have never been written!!! Ol' HR is off wandering in Never-Never Land. You guys should try to go back and view some of his earlier posts, then read what Dark Cloud had written. Talk about entertainment...!!!Best wishes, Fred. Good day, gents. You are correct about wavelength - mine is in lazer light spectrum. I have broadly never blamed Custer. What I maintain is that he was in command while he was alive,. If someone did as Reno or Benteen to fred during combat, his actions in that regard would differ significantly from his opinion about LBH. Can you imagine fred's 2iC turning up late? His mission is somewhat screwed /9 - You figure that out.... ) > Custer was in command and the only actions that matter, were his. Could 7th Cavalry have won the day? We will never know because Reno retreated before he could be reinforced as Custer ordered. Read more: lbha.proboards.com/conversation/14697?page=1#ixzz3qzgEjAAuAll or nothing.... youtu.be/NjEMHtSCU9M
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Nov 9, 2015 9:58:45 GMT -6
DucemusHi magpie, i'll see if I can pull some thoughts together. It's been a silly day. Custer needed to understand what he had gotten Reno into, and adjust. This he did with hostiles in his rear sirting around NC. The John Two Moon accounts give contact early with the cavalry being followed by Indians, unless the interpreter confused it. There were a small party running ahead of the troops also - five Sioux who joined Cheyennes at the river. Delay was Custer's perogative in that he was the CO and way too many people play games with this. His declared intention at the OM was to attack, and attack the village which appeared to be moving until Custer saw it from the bluffs, accompanied by Martin. In my reading of stuff, Gall saw him up there, then. Martini as orderly trumpeter was gone, later on. This may have been wishful thinking by the Pioneer Press reporter or someone in 1886, but is the 'given'. Delay equals sacrificing Reno's command and that criticism lays squarely at Benteen's feet in watering horses whilst his regiment were in battle. There are huge problems still with the oblique march and Benteen's silence once Whittaker got started up. Reno was not going to go galloping into a pile of tepees. A hord of hostiles managed to evolve themselves out of the camps to confront him. Two Moon for example, did not arrive until the retreat was under way as can be guaged from the Wooden Leg account. The retreat was a mistake in military terms. Reno recieved no new orders. His story is emphatic about that and as a subordinate, under orders andf in combat as an element of a regiment commanded by Custer - he was under orders and those orders were disobeyed when he retreated without permission or giving notice to his commander. That he had an independent command, in the context given to defend him, is rubbish. In regards Reno's lawyers, the brief if you like, was very simple - discredit Whittaker's analysis of the time of day ie, the time of the place. This was done and eventually the board of the Court realised this, and recalled Wallace to explain himself. It was not taken further. Reno could have held the timber until Benteen arrived, unless the timing was really screwed up and I thought that a long time. However, it is apparent from Maguire in his report, that Benteen was near the village at 2pm. He obliqued for an hour and a half, was in Long Otter Creek and returned to the main trail. He travelled a maximum 10 miles less time allowed for watering horses. I'm not going to argue over that, it is simple fact. He could have reached Reno in the valley. Benteen sent the Ree scout Stab or Stabbed to Custer, with a message. The scout rode to the end of the bluffs and back to join the pony stealers. Martin was then sent to Benteen. We have no record other than Goldin, of orders sent to Reno. Thus Reno was not recalled and Benteen was hurried up to join Reno, and take the pacck train and rearguard - all available manpower. Maximum strength commited to the valley attack,ith Custer rightfully holding the right of his military line to commit as he saw fit. He was in command, not Reno, not Benteen, not McDougall. The idea of sacrificing Reno came from Kuhlman and he had some very strange ideas, besides some good ones also. SSL is a real problem because accepting it means Keogh was sent to Calhoun. Scott's presentation of the Pitsch finds, confirms Vaughn's analysis and findings. The real question about Reno, is whether the hostiles released from his front, contributed materially to Custer's........... lets face it, massacre. Sleep time. Regards. Where does the conviction that Benteen was ordered up to support Reno's Valley attack? Certainly Benteen didn't understand it that way and declined to cross at Ford A or even give a demonstration there which would have kept some flankers from going behind Reno and may have changed the out come. Let's say Benteen commits one troop perhaps enough to drive the flankers back perhaps enough to fill the line at the timber position to be self supporting. There is still the problem with the ditch and that the Indians were driving Reno to the Village and the Indians had plans for Reno there. I think Indians from the Village is half the forces being deployed alot of mounted warriors were out hunting and returning from every direction towards the sounds of battle. Thus you have the deer hunter returning to shoot the fleeing Sarg. below Weir hill where other Indian's seeing the soldiers pistol balanced by his shoulder and near his head percieve a suicide. Where is Long Otter Creek. I am ignorant there?
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Nov 9, 2015 11:57:34 GMT -6
I don't think you can take from GAC responsibility for very poorly written orders. He assumed a situational awareness that was totally lacking in Benteen the private that heard the discussion percieving Benteen joining Reno's attack to Reno's Left. Reno, I believe, needed to be to the left of Otter Creek and perhaps attacking down it to dislodge the young Warriors and then moving to the Village or if bogged down actually ocuppying the ditch.
Millions of years of evolution has produced a winning tactic, fein a broken wing and move away from the nest. All the wining from the pro-GAC's will not change that in running away Reno unintentionally mimicked that strategy hard wired into so many creatures. Moving forward would have brought the Indians forward and closer to Custer's plan of attack. Reno's fate all the same. Take a look at that high river bank (just below the ranch buildings) overlooking Taylor's version of the Timber position. Line it with Indian rifleman and even perhaps bowmen firing into the glade and you can't hold that "glade"( that seems to be the dished out area described it being the fan of sediment at the mouth of Otter Creek where the Indians are camped in Taylor's photo and probabley where they camped for generations).
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Nov 9, 2015 14:09:44 GMT -6
Perhaps I am wrong but for everyone who says Cooke's message is ordering Benteen to come to Custer, there can be a point made that Benteen could have thought he was to go into the valley. There is only one destination mentioned in the message--big village.
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Nov 9, 2015 14:29:00 GMT -6
Perhaps I am wrong but for everyone who says Cooke's message is ordering Benteen to come to Custer, there can be a point made that Benteen could have thought he was to go into the valley. There is only one destination mentioned in the message--big village. It's an interesting perceptual thing. Big Village isn't really visible south of Reno Hill. "Up" doesn't convey down in the Valley to me but up to Weir Peak? It's very poorly written and it is GAC and Cooke's fault and no one else unless a copy of Benteen's message via Blade turns up. Up to me is up at the front and GAC is the front or Up in elevation as apposed to down in the Valley (ho ho green giant). There's no way those packs Benteen has been ordered in duplicate to bring "Up" are moving in time to do Custer at LSH or Reno in the valley any good. Also Benteen in RCOI made it clear he wasn't going down into the Valley. One can conclude he did not think he was ordered to do so. Quite the opposit.
|
|
|
Post by edavids on Nov 9, 2015 15:12:23 GMT -6
Perhaps I am wrong but for everyone who says Cooke's message is ordering Benteen to come to Custer, there can be a point made that Benteen could have thought he was to go into the valley. There is only one destination mentioned in the message--big village. I think the meaning of Cooke's message can and has been argued ad infinitum. Benteen did go to Ford A and was beckoned by NA scouts to follow Custer's route up the bluffs. This was approximately the same time as Reno's retrograde/arrival on the hill. I do not object to opinion or theories as to where Custer expected Benteen to go. I do object to people who present theory as fact, demean others who don't buy their theory as fact and fill in real or perceived blanks with their own verbiage presented as fact. Bottom line is that we will never know Custer's intentions for Benteen and the term "ammo" or "ammunition" does not appear in the order despite 2 opportunities to place it. Best, David
|
|
|
Post by edavids on Nov 9, 2015 15:24:02 GMT -6
Beth-excellent, thought provoking post and thank you for it. My response was by no means aimed at you (or even HR).
|
|
|
Post by dave on Nov 9, 2015 15:59:13 GMT -6
Benteen was in a no win situation dealing with Cooke's torturous order. He could not go to big village since he was facing over 900 warriors and how can you hurry and bring packs? I have read the theories that he was to know to bring only the ammo mules and come to Custer.
I fail to see how Benteen could have left Reno and proceed to Custer where ever he was. All that was know about Custer's position was that he went north. Benteen spends the time necessary to reorganize Reno's command and then Weir trots off to check on Custer.
Benteen is vilified for not going to Custer and bringing the packs but is it a fair charge? I argue that Custer was doomed once he passed 3411 and continued north. Benteen was wise not to destroy his command by following Custer. Other posters believe that Benteen should have gone to his death by committing to Custer and his command. Horse feathers! Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Nov 9, 2015 16:01:06 GMT -6
Beth-excellent, thought provoking post and thank you for it. My response was by no means aimed at you (or even HR). A message board is like a round table discussion. I never take a response personal unless I am specifically called out. Ideas are offered for consideration and discussion. Personally, I learn more when people explain to me why I am wrong than just agreeing that I am right. I often wonder if Benteen had been just a few minutes earlier and not directed towards Reno's men on the hill what direction he would have chosen. It's just an interesting point for speculation though. I can't get away from the point, if the message had been better written, a lot of LBH hobbyists and historians would have selected a different battle to pour their energies into. Beth
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 9, 2015 16:31:14 GMT -6
Benteen in RCOI made it clear he wasn't going down into the Valley. One can conclude he did not think he was ordered to do so. Quite the opposit. There were three instructions in that note: (1) come; (2) be quick; and (3) bring the packs. Put yourself in Benteen's place. He received the note less than a mile from the river. He heard firing. He rode to the river to investigate what he was hearing. It would be a normal assumption-- and quite a valid one-- that the idiot Martini would inform Benteen where to go... but he didn't. Because of the proximity to the river and the immediacy gunfire generates, it would be normal as well to check that out before doing anything else. I would assume-- with less validity, possibly-- Benteen would then turn around and ask Martini for Custer's location, but before he did such a thing, he saw some Indian scouts who directed him up the bluffs. That is what he did. So... summarizing... (1) Benteen came; (2) he was quick about it from the beginning, even before he was told... then again, that is what a good officer does; and (3) he knew precisely where the packs were, so he fulfilled that requirement as well. And while you are all at it, someone may want to figure out how to speed along those packs faster than they were going. The timelines in Strategy explain all of this, quite well, I think. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Nov 9, 2015 16:32:52 GMT -6
I don't think you can take from GAC responsibility for very poorly written orders. Magpie, I just took this from your post in order to make a point. I agree with you that Custer is responsible, but not for the note itself, Lt Cooke wrote that oxymoron of a note, but for a different reason. Among Custers blunders that day this often goes unnoticed. That is, who he sent the message with. I understand that Martini was his orderly, OK fine, send him on a beer run. However, you do not send someone with the most important message of your life that does not have a firm grip on the English language. My guess is that when Custer was giving Martini the message, the poor soul looked like a deer in the headlights. Cooke saw this and realized that Martini probably didnt understand all or any of Custers orders, that was the reason for the note in the first place.Custer should have chosen someone else to carry the message, but he didnt, the rest is as they say History. Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 9, 2015 16:34:31 GMT -6
Where is Long Otter Creek. I am ignorant there? I know of no " Long" Otter Creek, just Otter Creek. It is also known as Kuhlman's Ravine. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|