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Post by magpie on Nov 17, 2015 11:08:43 GMT -6
Thanks for the compliments, they perhaps too generous for me. Yes you are very correct but it is difficult to figure as humans are not always rational. The other problem now a days is people believe such analysis to be racist. It pains me that the latest rage to remove Indian culture from our society by branding names like Indians, Warriors, Red Skins as racist when in reality they were signs of respect.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 24, 2015 23:37:10 GMT -6
It is not a question of whether Benteen disobeyed his orders or not. He did. He elected not to engage in the valley. This he understood, and Terry understood it also. Read Terry's report of the 27th, and accept a reality. Benteen's battalion were to support Reno. This is evidence of a very simple reality - concentrate your forces in the face of threat and certainly unexpected threat. We've caught them napping, Martin reported and Reno was glad enough to state that to Rosser. Benteen, Weir, Edgerley, all went to Ford A, and certainly Company D also by simply following their officers. Benteen did not know Reno and Custer had seperated and went to Ford A, where his advance to battle was observed by DeRudio. People can waffle on about Benteen going to Custer before Reno retreated, until the cows give birth to sheep but that does not prevent it being rubbish and sleight of hand. It is as insane as Kuhlman! who foisted that rubbish on an ignorant audience. Such is life.... Ho hum. Read Terry's report. Unfortunately, those who make this mistake cannot be corrected. Such is life and disasters by wrong thinking. Benteen was sent to support Reno who had retired without permission. Benteen then disobeyed his orders by going to Reno on the bluffs. This he stated to Terry when debriefed on the 27th. I guess that Terry got to see the last message which he perfectly well understood and reported. Reno retreated before his support arrived.
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Post by fred on Nov 25, 2015 8:23:54 GMT -6
It is not a question of whether Benteen disobeyed his orders or not. He did. He elected not to engage in the valley. Herosrest, You should elect to remain on the other boards: there is enough misinformation and erroneous nonsense over there to keep you busy for a lifetime. Your comment above is indicative of such bad information. It is misleading, it is a fabrication, and it is simply wrong. With the exception of Steve, Tom, and an occasional bout of whimsey from Robb, I have not seen an intelligent or completely correct post there in ages. You should take a lesson from a fine, retired combat officer such as Montrose... you might actually learn something that is true. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by dave on Nov 25, 2015 13:55:09 GMT -6
HR You posted: "It is not a question of whether Benteen disobeyed his orders or not. He did. He elected not to engage in the valley. This he understood, and Terry understood it also. Read Terry's report of the 27th, and accept a reality. Benteen's battalion were to support Reno. This is evidence of a very simple reality - concentrate your forces in the face of threat and certainly unexpected threat. We've caught them napping, Martin reported and Reno was glad enough to state that to Rosser. Benteen, Weir, Edgerley, all went to Ford A, and certainly Company D also by simply following their officers. Benteen did not know Reno and Custer had seperated and went to Ford A, where his advance to battle was observed by DeRudio."I am unable to understand your point regarding Benteen disobeying his order. How could he engage in the valley when he finds Reno's command on the bluff? And when Reno tells him to stay and help reestablish his battalion. Your statement: "Benteen's battalion were to support Reno. This is evidence of a very simple reality - concentrate your forces in the face of threat and certainly unexpected threat."
If that is correct then how did Benteen fail to follow orders? I found a prior thread that might be of assistance to all. Regards Dave thelbha.proboards.com/thread/2343/custer-reno-benteen-middle-ground
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Nov 25, 2015 15:05:34 GMT -6
As long as we are reveling in some guilt over the white man's treatment of the NA's let us remember that men like Andrew Jackson were products of their time. Sam Houston broke with Jackson over the treatment of the Cherokees. This was a time of slavery and manifest destiny and a mistaken belief that whites were superior to everyone else. The USA wasn't the only expanding country (empire) to be doing this. Europe was on the verge of subjugating Africa and the far east. The Brits would "benevolently" rule India. Well, at least they thought they were benevolent.
What the NA's lacked was a Genghis Khan. No one ever rose up and united all the tribes west of the Mississippi for example. Some brilliant military and political leader who could put 10,000-20,000 mounted horseman into the field and knew how to use them to their best advantage. No single NA leader even came close. The only two men IMHO who might have pulled it off were Red Cloud and Quannah Parker. By the 1860's and 70's it was too late.
No question the Cherokees got screwed. They tried to do everything right. It just goes to show how adamant the whites were in putting NA's on reservations and taking their land. I'm generalizing here. Not all whites were like that, but not enough were not like that and the NA's were paved over while our forefathers steamrolled across the continent.
By the way, on the original subject. I always thought that I had been in Reno's timber. This would have been back in 1970 when I first visited the battlefield. But now I am beginning to believe that I was nearby, but not one the spot where Reno set up shop before his "charge" back across the river. I was in timber and it bordered the LBH so it was similar, but I think I was one timber stand north.
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 25, 2015 15:05:42 GMT -6
Dave,
Have you not learned that addressing fan boy double speak is a waste of time, here on any other board. I will listen to Wild on this issue, he uses common sense and gives Benteen credit where he knows it is due. This claptrap emanates from the very top of the fan boy forum. When it fits, Benteen was to report to GAC, when it does not he was to support Reno in the valley. Traditional bait and switch sales technique. It is tough to ignore, as those new to the study of this battle may become confused.
Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Nov 25, 2015 17:06:50 GMT -6
Ducemus
Unfortunately, those who make this mistake cannot be corrected. It does everyone else huge dis-service. Such is life and this is a terrific example of disasters brought about by wrong thinking.
Benteen was sent to support Reno who had retired without permission. Benteen then disobeyed his orders by going to Reno on the bluffs. This he stated to Terry when debriefed on the 27th. I guess that Terry got to see the last message which he perfectly well understood and reported.
Reno retreated before his support arrived. People who cannot admit that have the problem with reality.
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Post by montrose on Nov 25, 2015 21:27:28 GMT -6
Hero,
You joke around a lot. Are you being funny here, or just irrational and wrong?
Let's look at your theory, since it is a main theme of the lunatic/mindset board.
The theory is that the Benteen and McDougal battalions were ordered to enter the valley and support Reno.
From 3411 LTC Custer saw 900 Indians sweep around the Reno battalion open left flank. So he knew the trailing battalions would have to defeat these 900 Indians to reach Reno. Never mind the several hundred additional Indians still between Reno and the village, or in the village.
This means the main battle against the Indian main body will be fought in the valley between Ford A and the Reno skirmish line.
This also means whatever LTC Custer is doing in the empty badlands east of the village, he intends to do it with his 5 companies, with no support, coordination, command and control with the other 7 companies and detachments.
If you so desire, I can analyze this theory. But this is a straw man argument. I have a part time job as a second reader on grad school theses, and I would not allow such an argument to be used. It fails the common sense test.
If you or anyone truly believes this theory, I will discuss it. But if you are just joking around, please be a little clearer in letting us know that. I joke around a lot, and I try to be clear when I do so.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by herosrest on Nov 25, 2015 23:05:04 GMT -6
Hero, You joke around a lot. Are you being funny here, or just irrational and wrong? Let's look at your theory, since it is a main theme of the lunatic/mindset board. The theory is that the Benteen and McDougal battalions were ordered to enter the valley and support Reno. From 3411 LTC Custer saw 900 Indians sweep around the Reno battalion open left flank. So he knew the trailing battalions would have to defeat these 900 Indians to reach Reno. Never mind the several hundred additional Indians still between Reno and the village, or in the village. This means the main battle against the Indian main body will be fought in the valley between Ford A and the Reno skirmish line. This also means whatever LTC Custer is doing in the empty badlands east of the village, he intends to do it with his 5 companies, with no support, coordination, command and control with the other 7 companies and detachments. If you so desire, I can analyze this theory. But this is a straw man argument. I have a part time job as a second reader on grad school theses, and I would not allow such an argument to be used. It fails the common sense test. If you or anyone truly believes this theory, I will discuss it. But if you are just joking around, please be a little clearer in letting us know that. I joke around a lot, and I try to be clear when I do so. Respectfully, William DucemusHere's a real problem for you. In analysing modern much improved time line analysis, it is difficult to conclude other than (Happy Thanksgiving, bye the way) anyone other than Benteen, was responsible for the time data quoted by Maguire, in his report of the expedition and battle to the Chief of Engineers. That is, it was Benteen who arrived near te village about 2pm. Only took since RCoI until very recently to untangle that banana skin. So, Benteen was Mr or if ya prefer, Capt. Know it all......... oh yes he was. So.......... Maguire's skirmish line on his map is the 12 to 15 men whom............ la la la la..... Benteen saw fighting in the valley as Reno climbed the bluffs. There ya go, Jason Pitsch bananas sorted out! Just smile.... Life and Benteen are like that. I can hardly wait... This is your common sense test. Enjoy.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 26, 2015 8:54:29 GMT -6
HR
Benteen testifies that he doesn't know the times . He clearly testifies that he uses others for time. The same applies to Reno's report. In his whole report he states he only knew for himself one time. The rest of the times were taken from others.
Happy Thanksgiving
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Nov 26, 2015 9:05:11 GMT -6
HR Benteen testifies that he doesn't know the times . He clearly testifies that he uses others for time. The same applies to Reno's report. In his whole report he states he only knew for himself one time. The rest of the times were taken from others. Happy Thanksgiving AZ Ranger DucemusReno and Benteen knew very little and would have the world believe that they were not subject to the orders of their C.O. They were. One was told fight and you will be supported. He did not wait for support. The other was told to hurry up, when he should not have been delaying. Custer was at liberty to deploy as he saw fit. That Reno was abandoned by Custer, is the twaddle of Reno. Reno's only caveat was the poor performance of the carbines and ammunition. He did not play that card and did so because it would get him sacked. Some reporting of the Reno Inquiry- query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9F01E3DE123EE73BBC4052DFB7668382669FDEQuite remarkable, from a New York newspaper, on January 18, 1879. Mind you NYT archive is full of surprises. Quote - He heard several volleys, of from 50 to 100 shots each, on the other side of the village, at about the time the order was given "Every man to his horse". Reno's men at that word left the wood where they were stationed, and in 10 or 15 minutes they saw Custer's command, or what he believed to be that command.In reprise (for the hard of hearing) heavy volleys of gunfire from Custer's command were heard as Reno organised his charge into Little Bighorn river! All please revise your timelines. Quote from anonymous blogger; 'One of the scouts, White Man Runs Him, claimed to have scolded Custer; “Why don’t you cross the river and fight too?” To which, the scouts say, Custer replied, “It is early yet and plenty of time. Let them fight. Our turn will come.” 'What the rather piquant and well served Crow scout did not know, or understand, was that Benteen was on his way to support Reno. Arriving at Ford A while Reno retreated by charging into the river; and as Custer sat at Ford B. Fighting! Blog by Insignificant blogger - thepublici.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/rewriting-history.html suggesting that Mrs. Custer was anti Army. She defended the army. Her Army. ps - I defy anyone to label NYT's as pro-Custer Obviously - WA. |Graham is immediately called into question. Kuhlman is simply a joke!
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 26, 2015 17:27:07 GMT -6
Reno and Benteen knew very little and would have the world believe that they were not subject to the orders of their C.O. They were. One was told fight and you will be supported. He did not wait for support. The other was told to hurry up, when he should not have been delaying. Custer was at liberty to deploy as he saw fit. That Reno was abandoned by Custer, is the twaddle of Reno.
Support has to be timely and that includes the ratio of Indians to troopers engaged. You make statements on what an officer can and can not do as if it were fact. You ignore that U. S. officers are expected to make the best available decisions and that orders are for specific events and if those conditions change the officer is expected to adapt his decision making.
Do you consider Terry's arrival as support? I don't because it was not timely.
Just how long would it take to be supported by the whole outfit. I suspect it would be to long to be considered support.
I think what changed was 50+ running Indians turned into 900+ Indians moving toward Reno or getting ready to move toward Reno. If equal odds between Reno and the fleeing Indians were the conditions at the time of the order then hundreds running toward Reno are a change of the real time environment.
Benteen was not told to hurry and certainly he could not move any faster than a mule carrying a pack can travel.
The review of any action and the resulting discipline can only take place in real time. It can be undone as in the case of Reno's family pursuit of a reversal but there is no conviction if the subject is dead. Even at the court of inquiry the statute of limitation was close.
The review of decision making with a goal to do things better can go on forever.
I don't think either Reno or Benteen would change what they did. Benteen testifies that he would do it the same way. That seems to throw down the gauntlet for either taking discipline or not. Even Whitaker changed his mind about Benteen. So I am not sure you had any support HR by anyone in a position to take action against Benteen. We know the outcome of the Reno Court of Inquiry. Anyone expecting accolades for Reno's action when total battle results are a huge loss is mistaken in their belief of what Reno expected the outcome to be.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Nov 26, 2015 18:47:16 GMT -6
Let's say Reno had stayed in the timber. Does Benteen veer from following Custer to support Reno? The reason I ask this is because exactly when was Custer going to come to Reno support in any scenario? I'm not saying he would not have, but it is hard for me to see the scenario given that Custer was after the village and bagging the NA's.
Okay, let's say Benteen crosses the river and comes to Reno's support. Of course he would have to scout ahead to find out where Reno was. Otherwise he marches right by the crossing point and continues north following Custer's trail. What would Reno coming to Reno's supoort have looked like? Would it have been enough to keep Custer (moving north and oblivious to it all) from being overwhelmed later on?
Would the NA's have pulled up stakes and fled to the West? Doubt it.
IMHO: Reno stays in the timber and Benteen comes to his support. NA's go on the defense, but keep enough warriors in the area to hold off the two battalions. Custer continues north. Part of NA's filter north to meet that threat. It's important to think hard about exactly what Reno and Benteen would have done. Would they have sensed less pressure and charged the south end of the village? I get that we'll never know, but based on their personalities I just doubt it. They might conduct an active defense or they might withdraw. Hopefully the former over the latter.
Benteen doesn't know about Reno (Reno being a good soldier and staying in the timber) and he follows Custer's trail. Does he save Custer? Does he get there in time to make a difference to Calhoun or Keogh? I can't see a scenario where Custer wins based on how and where he divided up the 7th.
The lack of thorough scouting and knowledge of the terrain is what killed Custer.
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Post by Colt45 on Nov 27, 2015 10:30:48 GMT -6
Shaw, He doesn't win, period. There were more than enough hostiles to handle Reno and Benteen, if both were in the valley, plus more than enough to handle Custer. If Reno had stayed in the timber and if Benteen saw him there, crossed at ford A, and engaged the Indians that were south of Reno, he has to fight through 900 Indians to reach the timber. Let's say he does that and gets to Reno. Now you have about 300 against the original 900, plus whatever support comes from the village. The force that moved against Custer still wipes him out, and then comes after Reno and Benteen, who if they are still in the timber area, are doomed. In this scenario, the best thing Reno and Benteen can do is retreat back towards ford A and either cross back over or take to the higher ground on the west side of the river and set up a defense.
Now if Reno stays in the timber, and Benteen follows Custer's trail. Reno will ultimately DIP. Benteen follows Custer's trail at the speed the pack train will allow him to travel, and by the time he gets to the vicinity of LNC, Custer is already dead, and that hostile force can now move against 3 more companies and a pack train. End result: Entire 600 man 7th cavalry wiped out.
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Post by fred on Nov 27, 2015 12:42:33 GMT -6
Shaw, Colt's post is right on the money: I agree with him all the way; but let me elaborate a bit. First of all, always keep in mind that timing is the key to the Little Big Horn. One must absolutely be able to put a time next to each and every event. If you cannot do that, you cannot understand the battle, what transpired, how it occurred, or even who did what. With the LBH, time rules all. Let's say Reno had stayed in the timber. Does Benteen veer from following Custer to support Reno? The timber was 2½ – 2¾ miles away from where Benteen viewed the dust-riddled valley and those riders who he believed he saw. The distance between Benteen and what he saw was somewhat less because those riders had already traveled the better part of a mile toward the retreat crossing. Had Reno remained in the timber, Benteen would have probably seen nothing more than Indians riding hither and yon. Probably, he would never even have been able to make out the timbered area at all. Then of course, one would have to deal with (a) the larger shod trail heading up the bluffs, to the right and perpendicular to the route Benteen was traveling and (b) Curley and the Rees directing Benteen up the bluffs. My money says Benteen would have never entered that valley, not until he could figure out what was happening there. And let us not forget by that time he had Custer's note, ostensibly placing him in charge of the packs. There isn't a chance in hell Mathey or McDougall would have crossed the river at that point and entered that valley having seen, essentially, nothing but Indians and loads of dust and smoke. By the time Reno pulled out of the timber, Custer had forgotten any comments he made regarding "support." One can beg the question all one wants; but had the battle turned out differently and Custer survived, any end-game involving Custer and Reno would have devolved into a shouting match with Custer claiming anything he did could be construed as "supporting" Reno. I assume you meant, "What would Reno Benteen coming to Reno's support...." I would think it would look not a lot different than when Custer was overwhelmed atop LSH, because I doubt the Indians would have run-- not with those numbers. Plus, always remember, cavalry of this type was never designed for a pitched, mounted battle. There were no slashing instruments; the carbine was useless; and the pistol was 5 to 6 shots at best... and then a bear to re-load. I doubt a smart commander such as Benteen would have ever entered that fracas, especially not knowing what he was getting into or how many troops would be supporting him from the other side. As for Indian numbers fighting whomsoever, I go over that pretty thoroughly in Strategy. I believe the number I came up with was 44.3% I doubt it, too. Again... I doubt this would have happened. And if Benteen had moved into the valley, his command would have been cut in half. Also, let's not forget the packs. At this point, Benteen's responsibilities included them. No.. Not at all. Neither. And let's not forget: by that time there were enough Indians between Custer/Keogh and Benteen-- in harsh terrain-- that would have precluded Benteen's easy arrival. Best wishes, Fred.
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