|
Post by dave on Sept 29, 2015 17:30:31 GMT -6
Fred Thank you for the kind words and affirmation of friendship which means a lot to me. I could use a kind word because I have an addition to my list of things happening to me. I have been taken to the wood shed a couple of times today and must admit I enjoyed it. I have been a bad boy. Regards Dave
Beth You are the best! Regards Dave
|
|
|
Ford D
Sept 29, 2015 18:07:05 GMT -6
fred likes this
Post by benteen on Sept 29, 2015 18:07:05 GMT -6
Whereas I have no standing and little respect except that of myself, family and friends. Don't kid yourself; you have plenty of "standing." You have shown yourself to be smart, worldly, clever, and more than knowledgable. Quite honestly, I am proud to call you a friend. Best wishes, Fred. Dave, I echo Capt Freds words. Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Ford D
Sept 29, 2015 18:24:00 GMT -6
fred likes this
Post by dave on Sept 29, 2015 18:24:00 GMT -6
Dan Thank you. That means a lot coming from you with your background. I guess we "bad apples" still have a purpose in our latter years. Regards Dave
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 1, 2015 15:52:12 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on Oct 1, 2015 15:52:12 GMT -6
Personally I find it very hard to face myself in the mirror while shaving because I can't raise my leg that high. Now that might be a picture I would pay for! I have been away for a few but my maturity level has not been elevated, but I can still look in the mirror. Same ugly mug, unfortunately.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 1, 2015 16:06:43 GMT -6
fred likes this
Post by tubman13 on Oct 1, 2015 16:06:43 GMT -6
Here is the deal with Ford D... à la, Fred... Custer was going to cross the river, regardless. He needed, however, to know what he was up against. Common sense; good tactics: recon, discover, act. As he moved down MTC he could see into the valley... part of it. It's easy, it's visible from way up the coulee. Look at the picture in the book and you can see it yourselves. He could see the dust rising in the valley; he could see tepees... and when he could see tepees there he would know there are even more tepees below. So what does he do? He makes the obvious choice: go higher, go farther. He mounts the easy slope up to Luce Ridge... and he looks. He sees more dust; he sees movement downstream; he sees tepees. He cannot see the end of the village, however, because there are intervening bluffs masking the extent of the Cheyenne circle. So what does he do? Well... he decides he cannot attack across that ford... it would be completely stupid; but since he is still a mile away, he needs to get closer to see what's what... remember 3,411 versus Sharpshooters' Ridge versus Weir Point? Same thing here: closer, closer, closer: got to see what is going on. So... he leaves Keogh back, knowing he needs to move even farther north. Keogh is to protect Custer's rear-- if need be-- and in the off-chance anything is seen of Benteen or even Reno-- I believe Custer, by this time, has been informed Reno is in some sort of trouble, the full extent unknown-- to link up and wait, everyone re-joining on the far hilltop, i. e., Calhoun Hill. Custer heads down to the ford; he sees what he needs to see, i. e., Indians are fleeing downstream and the village extends below Ford B. That means, in order to catch all the Indians, Custer needs to head farther north: that is the object of the campaign, the mission, his mission. So right or wrong, Custer heads north. So does Keogh. And they re-unite on Calhoun Hill. Now Custer needs to do the same thing all over again: leave Keogh back, ostensibly as a rear guard, but also to wait for Benteen's arrival, while Custer heads north to scout a suitable crossing, at or below where the Indians are congregating. Simple. Perfect military sense, despite what some idiots think. Find the assembly area and blast it!!! Not too goddam difficult to figure out!So Custer heads north having told Keogh when he links with Benteen, head downstream on higher ground, i. e., Battle Ridge, and Custer will have positioned himself in such a place so as to be seen. When the eight companies have joined, they will attack across Ford D, right into the heart of the gathering families. When he rounded what eventually turned out to be Last Stand Hill, he could see-- along the ridge extension-- another ravine (that came to be known as Crazy Horse Ravine, after another cockamamie theory) leading toward the river. He took it and it brought him to what we now refer to as Ford D. Remember something: all these ravines led to the river, one way or another, circuitous or not. And everywhere a ravine emptied into the river, it deposited silt, thereby making crossings relatively easy; that's what ravines do!!! That's why Reno followed a dry ravine to Ford A and it is why Custer was following Reno Creek toward the river before turning off suddenly; it is what happened with MTC and Deep Coulee and Deep Ravine: they all led to crossings, to fords. All this other crap about looking for suitable defensive ground, suitable offensive ground, suitable this, suitable that, is all sheer and utter nonsense and it shows me a complete lack of understanding of even the simplest basics of tactics... or of any ludicrous "mindset" some would have you believe. The thing is so simple, so easy, so basic, it makes all this hand-wringing, head-scratching, eye-twitching debate almost laughable. Best wishes, Fred. Ok, ok, call me cockamamie, this is still a great post! Very to the heart of the matter. I have said that Custer made a fair number of bad calls, starting on the 24th, but I do somewhat understand this method here. Still, in all many of his earlier calls doomed him to defeat!
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 1, 2015 16:11:43 GMT -6
Post by fred on Oct 1, 2015 16:11:43 GMT -6
Ok, ok, call me cockamamie... That was not meant for you. I was referring to some moron next door. I agree totally. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 1, 2015 16:11:55 GMT -6
dave likes this
Post by tubman13 on Oct 1, 2015 16:11:55 GMT -6
Beth Wild--history isn't based on the majority rule on a message boardAgreed and it is not our purpose here but rather to find probable cause. What Custer thought and did at the north end of the battlefield was not influenced by what was happening at the south Au contraire ; all military operations impact on one another and a system of command and control is employed so as to co-ordinate operations to best advantage. Any person can plan for any event but they can't control all the factorsTrue but one could not prosecute war unless one could ensure a high level of control over one's own forces.[at least before they come into contact with the enemy] Put in a non war setting. I can plan to get a ride to the mall on Bus B at 1 and go to the bus stop. However if Bus B has broken down miles away, and won't be at the bus stop until 2:30.Yes I agree with you but in the context of the LBH it is the bus driver who decides he is withdrawing his services. In the military to ensure that this does not happen they will shoot you. . Custer can do all he wants expecting for Benteen arrive but just like Bus B, he can't guarantee that the bus will ever make it.If a commander only acted where he was guarenteed success he would not leave his billet . In the case of Benteen, Custer placed a Battalion to cover Benteen's expected approach. Can you prove that Custer knew for a fact that Benteen had received the message from Martini and was on his way? It's like sending a registered letter, until you get that confirmation that the message has been received, there is no way you can prove it has been delivered.Good point. Custer has to remain on the offensive.Benteen is his ace in the hole.He must go for the Benteen option.If he is to get a favourable result he must hold his position . And we do know that the message did get through . But the majority view holds that Benteen acted correctly in halting. And the majority view also holds that Custer acted correctly . That is the conundrum. Cheers Wild, she put a pretty good one on you here. Your defense is tepid at best. Regards,Tom
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 7, 2015 16:06:55 GMT -6
Post by magpie on Oct 7, 2015 16:06:55 GMT -6
Gee I hope I'm not the moron next door. The tread for me is a little hard to follow as I get lost as to if all are presenting the oppositions argument or your own at times. I still want to keep GAC down to 3 mistakes. I am lost about Ford D and still wanting anyone going on the offensive there to be court martialed because your driving the Indians to the Big Horns. So good, you and Fettermans ghost can chase them there. Can anyone provide me the citations placing the noncombatants there verses to the West of the camp. I believe you are forced to defend at the "battlefield" it's not optional and therefore I am interested as the best way to. I believe the Indian counter attack across Ford B has made it impossible to get reinforcements or supplies. Alternate to heading for LSH you could try to return to the rear via Deep Coulee but I suspect a small number of Indians will harass you in all that cover and eventually they'll get a small blocking force in your path and your back to LSH. Yes Custer could be having a nervous breakdown but saying he's obsessing about bagging more or all the Indians is ludicrous unless he's blown his cork. I think he gambled, he lost and now he is running and being run by the Indians who are 2 steps ahead at every turn. I do not believe it would be easy to count Tepees on the Wooded valley floor framed by ridges. I believe his Scouts capable of estimating the seen plus the unseen (let's get the hell out of here or at least join Reno so we have a chance) but Custer liked to check it all out personally and seeing how he couldn't do the body count correctly at Washita can he do the Tepee count right at LBH. Do any of our scholars know GAC's mathematical aptitude and his visual abilities. How did he do in his math and engineering classes? ?
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 7, 2015 16:34:30 GMT -6
Post by benteen on Oct 7, 2015 16:34:30 GMT -6
Do any of our scholars know GAC's mathematical aptitude and his visual abilities. How did he do in his math and engineering classes? ? Magpie, I am not one of the resident scholars, but since he finished last in his class I would assume that he wasnt very good at them. I read somewhere that tactics was his worst class. Dont know if it was just someone joking in the forum or it was true. Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by jodak on Oct 7, 2015 18:22:29 GMT -6
The fact that Custer was last in his class is something that is often used to denigrate him, but I am willing to cut him a little slack on it. To begin with, his class originally consisted of about twice as many members as it ended up with, but, in addition to those that left to join the Confederacy, a good number had been dismissed or resigned for academic and other reasons. So, in one sense, Custer was not last in the class as much as he was last among those that had survived. Secondly, I don't sense that his academic shortcomings were the result of lack of intellect as much as lack of interest and application. He apparently changed in that regard and, in later years, was said to have been a voracious reader of everything that he could get his hands on regarding tactics and historic military operations, which presumably served to somewhat offset any lack of West Point learning. Finally, there were some notable others, such as one of my favorites - Longstreet, who had graduated at or near the bottom of their classes yet became exceptional officers, so, again, I don't put a lot of stock in Custer's low ranking in and of itself.
As a side note, Custer and arguably the best Indian fighter of them all, McKenzie, were actually subsequent graduates - Custer last in 1861 and McKenzie first in 1862.
As a second side note, in regard to tactics, Reno had served a tour at West Point as a tactics instructor.
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 7, 2015 18:41:31 GMT -6
Post by jodak on Oct 7, 2015 18:41:31 GMT -6
Another way of looking at Custer's class standing is that he was 34th in his class, which was the same as Sheridan in '53, only 2 worse than Sturgis in '46, and higher than notables Crook, Hood, Fitzugh Lee, Heath, Maxey, Pickett, McLaws, and Longstreet in their respective classes.
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 7, 2015 21:03:34 GMT -6
Post by magpie on Oct 7, 2015 21:03:34 GMT -6
I wonder if any of his school records survived. Rarely is anyone dealt all the cards in life. He obviously was a good writer but those kinds of skills often don't include Math, spatial relationships and oddly music. The math and spatial relationship is not everything but if your estimating things it becomes critical.
A pro Custer writer made the claim his low class rank had to do with demerits and not academics
|
|
|
Post by wild on Oct 8, 2015 2:11:37 GMT -6
Tom
Can you prove that Custer knew for a fact that Benteen had received the message from Martini and was on his way? It's like sending a registered letter, until you get that confirmation that the message has been received, there is no way you can prove it has been delivered. Good point. Custer has to remain on the offensive.Benteen is his ace in the hole.He must go for the Benteen option.If he is to get a favourable result he must hold his position . And we do know that the message did get through . But the majority view holds that Benteen acted correctly in halting. And the majority view also holds that Custer acted correctly . That is the conundrum. Cheers
Wild, she put a pretty good one on you here. Your defense is tepid at best. Regards,Tom One sharp Biddy .You take her lightly at your peril .
But here you have a go at the conundrum..... The general view is that Benteen acted correctly in halting and joining Reno. The general view at the other end of the field is that Custer was correct in expecting the arrival of Benteen. There is a contradiction;yes? Cheers R Richard
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 8, 2015 3:00:51 GMT -6
Post by Beth on Oct 8, 2015 3:00:51 GMT -6
I don't see a contradiction. Either event is not mutually exclusive of the other.
Custer made his battle plans based on what he thought the situation was. However since he had no ability to see or communicate with either Reno or Benteen, Custer had no idea that Reno had broke out and reestablished himself on what has become known as Reno Hill.
When Reno had to set up his defence on Reno Hill, it placed himself in between Benteen and Custer. When Benteen arrived at Reno's location, Major Reno told him to stay and help get things under control. Benteen did so as he waited for the pack mules to reach Reno Hill.
Once the pack train arrived, Benteen started to move north but by that time the space between Reno Hill and LSH had become filled with hostiles.
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 8, 2015 4:02:37 GMT -6
Post by wild on Oct 8, 2015 4:02:37 GMT -6
I don't see a contradiction. Either event is not mutually exclusive of the other. Custer cannot split his forces and remain in the Area without the expected arrival of Benteen . He has ordered Benteen to advance to his position .Come hell or high water Benteen will arrive because Custer so ordered. The general view holds this to be justification for Custer's decision to split his forces and to proceed North for the purpose of a recce.
Meanwhile back at Reno Hill the general view is supporting Benteens decision to cease his advance. The general view holds that Benteen is correct.
The general view holds that Benteen is coming. The general view holds that Benteen is not coming. Thus the contradiction.
|
|