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Post by Beth on Sept 26, 2015 12:08:39 GMT -6
Could two horses ride side-by-side on that ridge?
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Post by magpie on Sept 26, 2015 14:54:23 GMT -6
If Custer moves around for two hours and the Indian account is for a short period of time less than an hour than you have to accept Custer was moving without this Indians observation or close contact. If you're going to present contrary explanations on bullets on the field I would like to hear them. The angle of the bullet in the ground would be important. The bullets were less likely to have been removed. No one claims this is an uncontaminated location. The list of finds includes .223 so they are not withholding artifact discoveries. This is not a criminal case so finding artifacts consistent with a theory is sufficient in my opinion. The lack of artifacts could depend on location. I would not expect to find many surface artifacts of significance on LSH. As far as the markers at best the represent where some troopers were buried. There are a lot of spurious markers on the battlefield which represent the Army putting them where no body was found just because they could not put them on the reservation land in the valley. On Reno Hill you will see a grouping of Indian scout markers that look like a hedgehog formation. They didn't die there. I am not sure that I would take formation based up markers. Would the Indians move the bodies? Would the burial detail move the bodies? Did the marker placement crew who was willing to put out spurious markers take care to get the real sites correct? Regards AZ Ranger Without a doubt I will have to read Fred's work first. To try to use the bullet evidence is very difficult I remember getting quite a headache with Fox's book as I uploaded in my brain all his and in the end besides application of proffesional Jargon I didn't see more than Bentteen's first opinion that it was a complete rout. He saw 68 US army horses and two Indian ponies dead on the field it adds up to exactly what the Indian drawings show. I know much of the marker controversy and know it runs from Fred Dustin to now and am not at odds with the possibilities. Having been asked to hand dig a trench in the "god foresaken high plains" I would expect my hardest ground to be the top of the ridge as that's why that ground is still there and didn't wash down the draw. Also my education tells me there is a law in nature that everything tends to move to randomness. So I have a column of 2's ( because if I have foursey my middle men can't shoot) running the top of the ridge and dropping like flies at the tail , being rolled up if you like, till the whole rear of the column is dead. Bodies falling off horses blurs the line a little. I then have Indians stripping the bodies ( there is an account of a saddled Indian reaching down, hauling a body up, stripping it and dumping it during combat). This action randomizes the layout yet a little more. I then have the mutilaters come along and that randomizes the lay out a little more. Then I have gut shooting target practice but that tends to fix the corpses location but spreads gut bacteria through out. I then have a "burriel" detail it won't take these guy's long to figure out when they disturb a body black oze that stinks to high heaven gets disturbed and gets on and sticks to everything and everybody. Pretty soon we are scraping up loose soil where ever we find it and pouring it over the corpse, out of site out of mind is a powerfull force. Then some time later a grave marking detail. Now if I am a lazy digger I am going to put every marker in the soft ground (sediment) at the bottom of a draw but that is not what happened so I think the marker detail did their job. So now 140 years later I look at Fox's (93) survey of markers {page 76, Fig. 6-8} and I see very distinct lines. I look at satellite and topo and I see a triangle "palaside" of ridge top and a triangle.
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Post by magpie on Sept 26, 2015 14:58:06 GMT -6
Could two horses ride side-by-side on that ridge? Yes as many as you want
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Post by Beth on Sept 26, 2015 15:55:52 GMT -6
Could two horses ride side-by-side on that ridge? Yes as many as you want If you could put as many horses as you want side-by-side wouldn't it be more of a plateau than a ridge? Beth
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 26, 2015 17:18:34 GMT -6
Regarding the marker issue magpie it goes way before Fred Dustin and all the way back to 1877.
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Post by magpie on Sept 27, 2015 10:58:44 GMT -6
Regarding the marker issue magpie it goes way before Fred Dustin and all the way back to 1877. Yes up to the day of the battle: Indians, squaws, wolves, wolverines, coyotes, bears, possums, coons, pack rats (you know they keep a bone room in their houses). All in nature moving to randomness. What makes the whole thing mute is Fox's bullet and "brass" evidence matches the marble markers. What I believe is lacking in Fox (93) is common sense bullets ricochete and there was a tremendous amount of lead in these men and horses by the time they reached their end. If you read most accounts of survivors of massacres they survive by playing possum or they were unconscious. The Indians solution was to shoot every corpse, better safe that sorry. Most of the "found bullets where the afore mentioned:the real firing skipped and skidadaled out of the park. Maybe some day technonology will increase to the point that the tiny bits of lead rubbed of each round in it's path through the soil will allow a bullet to be tracked towards the shooter. Remember the Archeologists ran a grid leaving 2/3 undisturbed. I'd still like someone to show how they are going to fight that ground. 16-20 yards apart isn't happy but it beats a single line pinned by attacks from front and rear allowing infilade (spelling) down the line. You line those 3 ridges, laying prone leaving the very ridge top as cover, those 3 form a triangle, you at least have your back "covered" however thinly. Any Indians penetrating into the rear low ground can be placed in a deadly crossfire from all three line lines. Same for any Indians trying to walk the line on the ridge top placed in a cross fire from 2 lines of the triangle.
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Post by magpie on Sept 27, 2015 20:38:18 GMT -6
As per Magpie I still hope someone can explain to me how Custer thought he was going to pull this off and why so many of you believe he'd further divide his forces and attempt to take an even bigger bite out of the IndiansAs per Fred Because he completely underestimated his enemy, both in strength and intentions!!! You cannot assume a blunder [ completely underestimated his enemy] to support an assumption [ the further splitting of his command] The blunder suggested goes against all intell reaching Custer . Custer is in fact a witness ; are we saying he does not believe his own eyes and the advice of his senior officers? Custer is the most important witness in the battle. If he is mistaken what about all the other accounts? Cheers I agree with you and is essentially the point I'm trying to make and the one my cousin made to me. I still need to read Fred's rational, his book. I simply see other explainations from the facts as I know them (20 books read and the 30 years I have been looking at it. I already know Fred is committed to hill 3411 and so Custer looks the fool. Move to Martini's stated location and suddenly Custer at a Gallop doesn't look quite as stupid {he's gambling none the less, you have to to catch Indians in summer} as he has a coordinated attack, Reno at a trot hasn't formed a skirmish line yet and Custer at a gallop is one mile, a down hill run to Medicine Tail Coolee and Ford B. I can tell you I've crossed 3 miles of rougher country on a horse in 10 minutes. It's only 250 feet elevation above the valley floor. Who fired the first shot of an opening battle? Martini is taking fire before he can get back up the hill (Weir's complex of hills). Someone's saying Custer is deaf and dumb. One should read Sergeant Windolph's description of Custer going on the defensive in the Yellowstone campaign 2 years before, he is his own recon patrol leads the chase on a band of Indians, figures out they are fiening retreat drawing his army into heavy cover, Custer wheels around goes back to his troops. Custer and crew,then see 250 Indians march (yes march) out of the timber. He pulls back to where there is a stream on two sides ( two tributaries ? an oxbow ?) dismounts a skirmish line ( it doesn't say the number of troopers). Custer feels the situation is so desperate he has only one horse holder per 6 horses. There's timber to his rear: horse holders to the timber. Indians attack the skirmish line and the soldiers get lucky and bring down a chief, then Indian standard bearer (long pole with all those feathers) and a few others go to the chief's aid and are hit to. Custer notices an Indian to their rear near the Horses turns and attacks ( much like Reno ) they hit the Indian. Later they go over that ground and find foot prints of 40 Indians. The Indians withdraw to fight another day. So a different Custer was at LBH?
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Post by magpie on Sept 27, 2015 22:07:28 GMT -6
Hi Magpie I have difficulty with scenarios that involve tactical guano .[no disrespect ]We had a poster [maybe in the next parish]who suggested that Reno could have formed a square ond walked out of the valley . We had another character who suggested that cavalry horses were trained to dodge arrows . Now I think a box of 2 miles manned by 200+ men ,actually 150[ horse holders] would come close to trumping the above. I think Custer was over run while trying to break contact with the Indians. Or put a less romantic way ;running for his life. Cavalry are useless if not dug in or charging. I think the Indians caught Custer in line astern and made short work of him. The gap between Custer and Keogh is not sufficently wide enough as to suggest an intentional seperation of the two wings. Cheers Richard I agree with you on a rout, Benteen's first assessment. All the Indian drawings show same but one the faded buffalo hide. There's an Indian backed Indian account of an attack at Ford B by Custer, let's say forward elements specifically I company it stalled in the river, horses milled ,4 men crossed, 2 bodies found by Girard, and Ferrier Korn's horse wounded bolts and run's through evacuated Village, jumps Reno's ditch (to Korn's amazement {Reno:"you might get a horse to jump it"}) followed by a counter attack ( I suspect a large force hidden behind high bluff to South of the approach to Ford B.
The Indian stated counter attack probably drives across Medicine Tail Coolee cutting Custer off from retreat and resupply. Indian accounts seem to indicate mostly the young warriors were told to take positions on foot as infantry while the experienced warriors to their ponies. Reno's ditch was filled with young warriors on foot and I suspect behind that cliffed high bluff upstream of Ford B. The warriors (experienced battle hardened) start arriving in ever increasing numbers they turn Reno's flank. They storm across Ford B. Custer initially starts to run from the young warriors (infantry) counter attack. As my father said give a man a horse and he will run. Not a bad decision if your being chased by a large infantry force. Just what happens when Indians on horses arrive. Well Reno's experience tells.
Apparently Indians (as testified RCOI ) inexplicably don't shoulder carbines but hold them level to the ground across the pomels of their saddles and fire as rapidly as possible while riding 50 feet off the flanks of the retreating troops. Kind of in your blindspot as when your driving. My ROTC instructor commanded me to make sure any men I lead fired across the field in a criss/cross but I, he relented could aim and fire ( he knew I was a reasonably good shot) but no one else unless it was across the field. I first found this kind of astonishing that these Indians were doing what I was told to do. Then I realized that in a buffalo hunt using the same logic you were guaranteed at least one buffalo a round. Rifle rounds were expensive then as now. Half the Indians had only arrows and they were lobbed over the top. The Indians said it made the horses go mad. So now your horses are being stampeded, your wounded men and horses are falling to the rear and the coup counters are clubbing them to death from behind (LOOK AT THE DRAWINGS-WHAT DO YOU SEE??). The indian's are firing from the end of your column and across from both sides right down the line. The wounded are between capable troops and the Indians. How do you turn it around?
You top last stand hill and see Crazy Horses forces coming. So I see marble head stones which for all their short comings are backed by the bullet and cartridge archaeology. So to all those obsessed with every market controversy: It doesn't amount to much.
Now I admit to very happily having no combat experience and only one year of ROTC as I luckily squirted between Vietnam and Iraq etc. but this is the battle you must fight. These are the cards dealt. You can bunch up and concentrate your fire while being completely surrounded with two fronts like fish in a barrel or what? Those ridges do form a triangle with a deep depression in side that if the box is penetrated men from all three lines can fire at the penetraters without hitting their own. It's very unfortunate the perimeter is 2 miles. I didn't pick it. It's the topography of the field I must fight in. I don't think you have enough men at this point to do anything. There are no good choices. If the starting spacing is 5 yards, 15 is perhaps not a bridge too far. The box created by the marble markers is 3,000 meters (using Fox[93] topo map). The ridges as I remeasure are 2,500 meters or 1.5 miles if you do not bridge the ravine ( if you had 200 men left that's 13 yards for spacing ).
If you look at the field of marble markers from above and pull the markers of Calhoun Coulee and Calhoun Ridge into a straight line along the ridge running from Calhoun Hill to Deep Ravine you have my triangle exactly just moving the Calhoun line up and to the North. That tiny movement and your there at my triangle from where the bullets and the grave markers are. It's too close to be all the gobbledy goop manouvers I read about. If Custer's distance judgement was a little off he might off he may have thought bingo. It maybe the only chance he had.
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Post by montrose on Sept 30, 2015 8:24:12 GMT -6
Magpie has been posting several questions and issues on this board. He has not been getting focused responses. I assume this is because he is an honest poster, trying to sort things out in a rational and reasonable manner. He would get more responses if he believed in conspiracy theories, demon worship, and the normal insanity of the thelbha lunatic board.
It is my intent to answer his queries on this thread. Magpie, I mean no offense, but you cram a lot of questions, facts, theories, assumptions into single paragraphs. So I will rephrase what I think you mean as a question or a theory, and respond to it.
Sidebar. A classic way to prove idiotic theories is the straw man argument. You restate your opponents arguments in the way best suited to your own theory, and then flay them by arguing against your own idiotic and foolish argument, that you now claim is your opponents. Rini and Conzelman and most members of the thelbha board are masters of this art.
I will summarize what I think is your main point or points, and respond to that. If I misunderstand you, tell me. I will back up and try again.
So now I will give an example of how I intend to respond.
1. Theory. Magpie has asked if the 7th Cav had a plan where the Benteen, Reno and Custer elements were all conducting a coordinated attack on the village. Reno was hey diddle diddle, right up the middle, with Benteen on the left, and GAC on the right.
2. Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF). No. There is no possibility that this is true. Not one in a billion.
3. Alternate theory. It is my view that LTC Custer had no less than three estimates of where the enemy villages were located. To make things complicated, he also was assuming outlier groups of tepees, like at Washita, even though the evidence was massive and overwhelming that the Indians were concentrated.
I will now look at GACs estimate of the situation, and how he reacted to each estimate.
4. Estimate One. Small Indian outlier village of 10-30 lodges, located vicinity the Ash Creek, South fork Ash Creek junction.
This was GAC's finest moment on this day. He sent Benteen with 3 companies to move into SFRC valley, to flank the estimated camp, recon for other enemy, etc. He then massed 8 companies for main attack, Reno with 3 on left of creek, himself with 5 on right.
They would have butchered the target. Problem is the data from scouts disproved the estimate. There was nothing there, nor any indicators that there was something there. I see a disconnect between what the scouts and evidence shows, and what GAC chose to do.
5. Estimate Two. Enemy village is in LBH, in close proximity to Ford A. Size of village is still small, as I must explain by GAC's response.
When we look at a commander's decisions, we must not just look at what he chose to do, but what he chose NOT to do.
LTC Custer sent 3 companies to attack the estimated village near Ford A. He chose to not wait for the Benteen battalion (BN) and McDougal. This shows that he believed the village was 10-30 lodges, an outpost vice the main camp.
6. Estimate Three. LTC Custer now assumed the Indians had a village between Ford A and B. He moved to the right, under the assumption that this would put him behind this village when he crossed Ford B. I believe he still thought he could trap a small outpost, vice enemy main body. This view is insane if he was paying attention to the camp sites he and other US elements had been following since April 1876.
At or near 3411, he gained the required data on where the Indians were, and what they were doing. The Reno battalion was not chasing 10-30 outlying lodges, they were facing 1000. The SALUTE report data was now known. (Size, Activity, Location, Uniform, Time, Equipment).
The decisions LTC Custer made after gaining all necessary and sufficient information to win this battle raises new discussions.
7. Magpie: Talk to me friend. Am I addressing your queries? I have much more to write, just need a ready check with you before I proceed.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by fred on Sept 30, 2015 8:30:58 GMT -6
Magpie has been posting several questions and issues on this board. He has not been getting focused responses. I am a guilty party here, and rather burden you all with a bunch of lame excuses, I will focus more and more on what "magpie" is asking. Hell, it's only right. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by montrose on Sept 30, 2015 9:14:03 GMT -6
Fred,
My agenda is to have this board have folks talk to each other, not past each other,
We are not, and should not, all have the same views on primary and secondary evidence. We need to encourage folks to post with alternate views.
This does not mean ignore evidence. If someone is operating on flawed or false primary/secondary data,; that needs to be addressed.
If someone is operating on evidence known to be false, or fabricated, or falsified, well that is that the the.lbha.probaords.com website is designed to do. Go there with your fellow travelers, do not post here.
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Post by magpie on Sept 30, 2015 10:46:47 GMT -6
Thanks all: I just noticed these new postings on What Custer should have done. I was on the survivor section writing but now I will have to go to work and I have a friend in ICU to visit after so I will ask and try to figure out the response tomarow. Looking at Teepees framed by a timber canopy and cliff's definitely present problems and I recall Custer attempted to send Indian scouts to recon but they refused and that ditch sure threw a trip line in Reno making it to the extreme edge of the Village. Custer from Windoph's description pretty much acted on what he alone could see. Second Valley Custer's third attempt to get com. correct still falls short of com. and he alone is responsible. I have similar experience on second Valley's solved by term 2cnd skyline. Skylines are more definable: like which tributary is one to call a Valley? I think for the people of the high plains a valley is that land between two sky lines or two drainage basins with that I expect the entire Reno creek drainage to be surrounded by a single skyline.
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Post by magpie on Sept 30, 2015 13:17:19 GMT -6
You guy's are very invested in the Ford A area. What are the five most important referenced evidence for that. My simple view is you have 500 (+) lodges being drug down Reno or Ash Creek. You don't have a lot of Timber to hide erect Tepee's. The one Tepee you have is so visable from everywhere that it has become the most prominent land mark. You've got 6 inches of dust on your lodge trail and the butt of everyone's joke Major Reno has counted 500 lodge Tepee rings (side bar on this is we still find Tepee rings and charcoal hundreds of years after a camp). You have numerous knolls and Girard and others claim to see all the way down. I believe you can see all the way to the Garry Owen bend but not beyond. I would be very surprised if you could see past Weir Hill from 3411 or past the Garry Owen bend Timber from 3411. Why would you let the enemy know your exact number, your formation etc. by exposing yourself?
So all the above is not so important as compared to what it is that has convinced all you old soldiers that the lower Reno Creek to Garry Owen bend Timber is playing the mayor role in Custer's thinking or in Indian movements. Remember you can see for miles if it's unobstructed. So is it specific Ree narratives. Specifically I don't understand why Custer didn't ask Bloody Knife what's the deal and why won't you Scout this for me. The position of this Village is a natural Fortress as Webert (spelling) points out. I bet it was used as such for thousands of years for same. Can you give me the five most important things that back your position?
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 6, 2015 4:58:41 GMT -6
Magpie
Can you give the 5 most important things that mitigate against the position? What position are you talking about? Would one important thing do, if it busts your argument? Is 5 an important number to you? Where are DC, WO, QC, when questions like this are asked.
Why did not GAC send the requested scout down Tullock's? Why was McDougall attached to the pack train(late to a meeting), he was a proven Indian fighter, not only on the plains, but against the Apaches? Why not listen to his scouts regarding size and location of village? Why bring them if you don't use them to their fullest extent? Why didn't GAC concentrate his firepower in the valley, where it would have done the most good/damage? Why not correct your mistake rather than compound it when you viewed the numbers arrayed against Reno in the valley? I have often heard the old adage of divide and conquer, but never divide and be conquered, have you?
So many questions, so little time.
Regards, Tom
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Post by magpie on Oct 6, 2015 15:36:59 GMT -6
Hi Tom: 5 is just a number close to the amount of detail one can handle but big enough to convey the important parts. I have to reread and reread Montroses some to get his position.
1.) I was kind of sold on Custer's intent for Benteen to sweep( drive Indians) out of rear areas ( to protect packs or baggage train by leaving no significant enemy in the rear) and to end up after leaving the Valley of Reno (Ash) Creek and going to the second Valley ( LBH) ending up left and behind Reno (2cnd Valley). No particular evidence other than the 3 poorly written orders given to Benteen and situational awareness.
2.) The 25 Tepees at the mouth of Ash (Reno) Creek I had never heard or seen of, it's totally new to me. On a similar note I have often seen on these forums that the Ree Scouts were told by Custer to raid the pony herds. As the Ree's were supposed to pass in advance through Ash (Reno) Creek to the Indian herds seen on the hills above the Village.
Just as an aside here once you see smoke rising above ________ in the wide open spaces you are unlikely to be two miles off in locating it. Especially cowboys and Indians they know where the fire is and what's burning and maybe cooking from 5-15 miles away. I would maintain Custer and Scouts knew the location of the principal target ever since the Crows nest.
Tullock Creek Argument I think is not essential to the fight. I have certainly read various positions as to GAC conforming to Orders as well as Hughes (?) wishy-washy writing style of the Orders.
I am with you I'd like to choose my men based on tactical needs not seniority or trivial punishment but maybe Mc. was a better mule skinner??? That train not keeping up was a major contributor to the outcome. I have read and Fred confirmed Custer and the Army had a seniority system.
Listen to Scouts and confirm yes. From what I have read of Custer he was one of the best at Recon. I don't think much of Girard (don't think he was doing his job) and Charley was sick so Girard got him drunk and then he got shot). I am of the opinion Custer was gambling, not ignorant or stupid, but gambling he'd find another Village with warriors out of town (Washita).
To me the warrior filled "entrenchment" one mile South of the Village the major reason this attack failed. If you'd charged with 8 troops instead of 3 you could easily broken your Calvary in that ditch. Minus the ditch and with better communication Reno would have hit the Village at the same time as Custer and Benteen would have been behind Reno and to the left and the Indians would have been less inclined to Turn Reno's flank.
Essentially young unmounted Warriors were waiting in Reno's ditch and behind the bluffs on both sides of Medicine Tail's mouth all in ambush. The Indians presented the Village in a way they knew would excite Custer to attack (should change his name to squaw killer from morning star). The Indians were one to two steps ahead all the way beside superiority in numbers.
Custer should have disengaged and lived to fight another day.
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