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Post by welshofficer on Jun 2, 2015 7:48:17 GMT -6
I think it goes back a little futher then that Justin, they diverted the 4th Panzer Army and sent it south to apparently to help 1st Panzer Army, and they just got in each others way. I am not suggesting the 4th PZ Army could have taken Stalingrad alone, but if they were not diverted they would have arrived earlier than they did. Ian. Ian,
It goes all the way back to Von Reichenau's death! Paulus was only commanding 6th Army because Von Reichenau was to command Army Group South.....
WO
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 2, 2015 8:06:35 GMT -6
Yes Paulus apparently was a good staff officer, some say he was not experienced enough to lead an army in combat.
Ian.
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Post by dave on Jun 2, 2015 11:39:10 GMT -6
Mac & Ian For a couple of non-military types y'all put up some excellent posts. They were very persuasive an informative. Pretty good stuff for folks that have no experience with the Army of Dakota and proper mindsets! Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2015 12:13:35 GMT -6
Paulus is in Company I, 7th Cavalry Army of Dakota Dave. Same as Washington, Lee, Jackson, and Jubilation T. Cornpone. The company commander told me so himself, saying that Paulus and the first three were rookies, but that Cornpone fellow really knows his business.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 2, 2015 12:24:44 GMT -6
Paulus ended up doing a cushy number in Moscow for the last few years of the war, out of the 100.000 of his men captured at Stalingrad only 6000 survived after years spent in the Gulag.
But I suppose we cannot be too hard on him as the main idiot was back in Berlin, but at least he had the decency to shoot himself.
Ian.
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Post by mac on Jun 2, 2015 16:07:32 GMT -6
Thank you all! Amazing isn't it that it is so often characterised as something cowardly or the act of a drunk, rather than as a manoeuvre that is commonly used in that type of situation. About time critics started to look at why Reno needed to perform that manoeuvre! Cheers Mac,
With Reno, it's best to differentiate between before and after the Bloody Knife shooting.
His advance into the valley was textbook. AM with G in reserve. He attacks GAM, with some of M detached as flankers against the timber/river. He pivots to MAG along the skirmish line. His problem is that his left flank is just dangling in the air, with so few soldiers.
Retreat to the bluffs was the only viable option he had, but it could have been better undertaken and no doubt would have been better undertaken in other circumstances i.e. if Reno was not wearing Bloody Knife's brains on his face.
Ian,
There was no need for AGB to occupy Stalingrad to secure AGA's left flank. Secure bridgeheads across the Volga to the north and south of the city would have more than sufficed. The German's lost their tactical supremacy when they engaged in street fighting, even without the Luftwaffe bombing the city into a Russian sniper's paradise.
WO
Yes WO I am sure you are correct in your summation. Equally I agree it could have been done better, (who always gets everything right?) but what is often lost is that it was done and as a consequence a lot of men went home. More than those who went with Custer. Cheers
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Post by welshofficer on Jun 2, 2015 17:35:35 GMT -6
Mac,
Withdrawal to the eastern bluffs was undoubtedly the correct move.
Better co-ordination might have minimised the battalion casualties whilst relocating.
WO
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Post by mac on Jun 3, 2015 21:45:04 GMT -6
To go back to montroses original idea for the thread. I would like to see some thoughts about the timing of the Reno break out. Only Reno really knows how "hot" it was when he made the decision to leave. I am wondering if people see him staying say 15 more minutes has any great effect on the outcomes. Maybe he can be better organised, maybe he can be wiped out. Does it really change much for Custer? What happens to Benteen? Some people are so glib about how if he just held the timber all would be rosy but I think that may not stand up to analysis. Cheers
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Post by mac on Jun 4, 2015 6:10:42 GMT -6
Had a look at the timings. Seems to me that if Reno stayed an extra 15 minutes,which in the circumstance would seem a lot, two things happen. First Benteen has still not arrived at the valley much less entered it. Second Crazy Horse and friends have settled in and Reno is probably dieing in place. Benteen, maybe, could go towards Custer but good luck to the packs that are still an hour or so behind. I am thinking the notion that Reno holding out longer is a game changer is seriously flawed. Happy to hear other points of view. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Jun 4, 2015 6:34:12 GMT -6
Here in Colorado were refer to seriously flawed Mac, as totally insane ------ Don't come naked.
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Post by fred on Jun 4, 2015 8:03:05 GMT -6
Had a look at the timings. Seems to me that if Reno stayed an extra 15 minutes,which in the circumstance would seem a lot, two things happen. First Benteen has still not arrived at the valley much less entered it. Second Crazy Horse and friends have settled in and Reno is probably dieing in place. Benteen, maybe, could go towards Custer but good luck to the packs that are still an hour or so behind. I am thinking the notion that Reno holding out longer is a game changer is seriously flawed. Great post, Mac. Extremely good! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mac on Jun 4, 2015 16:01:26 GMT -6
QC I thought it was come as you are in Colorado. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Jun 4, 2015 16:21:15 GMT -6
Well.
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Post by montrose on Jun 4, 2015 20:17:11 GMT -6
Hmmmm,
Ok, spend a few days at the VA, and see many odd posts. I will try more meaningful posts after the stitches come out, driving me nuts.
So let's go to a single aspect. Why did Reno stop?
METTT means mission, enemy, terrain, troops, and time available.
Mission. MAJ Reno was told to attack a fleeing 30 Indians, and attack a supposed village location 2 miles from lone tepee, meaning 300 meters from Ford A. Remember, LTC Custer was assuming he would find an isolated group of lodges away from the main body, as at Washita. It was a dry hole, nothing there. He then continued 2 miles . As he got closer to the true massive village, the 30 Indians grew to 50, then 100, then 300, then 500, then 1500. The closer he got to the massive village, the more enemies would kill him.
But the Indians were not the incompetent Neanderthals the fanboys claim. They did not mass between MAJ Reno and the village. Honestly, that is what Western trained officers would do. Instead, the men closest to the attack went in on foot, with a few mounted folks who were more focused on creating dust clouds than getting within effective range. While they bought time, the main body of the Indians, at least 900, got their ponies and swept around Reno, attacking from his rear. If Reno had continued towards the village, the Indian would have attacked him from behind at odds of 9 to 1 or greater.
Enemy. The biggest failure of the fanboys is assuming away the enemy. The dried creek beds and various terrain features in the valley are insignificant for a battalion advance.. A 3 foot drop and ten foot gap? Seriously? The creek bed was significant because a few hundred Indians were there, plus another thousand in Reno's rear.
Terrain. The valley was great terrain for an attack. The area east of the river was badlands, significantly slowing US forces. Any elements east of the river could not support any element in the valley due to 2 NOGO features. SO ignorant folks say any attack in the valley could succeed, because of the ease of movement. Remember that enemy thing? Odds of at least 9 to 1? Doctrine says an attack should have a 3 to 1 ration in our favor, so this means a ratio of 1 to 27 minimum.
Troops. The wide scattering of the regiment meant no element could support any other. The Indians were badly underutilized. The cowardly thief interpreter Gerard did not help.
Time. In combat we focus on arranging forces and actions to have certain effects at a designated time annd place. The term we use is the Correlation of Forces and Means. Ugly term, simple concept.
In LBH, look at the effect of Reno's charge. The enemy had to arm themselves, and get their horses, being totally surprised. They then massed against Reno. SO there is a window in tome to exploit enemy confusion, and attack their flank and rear. Just a reminder, when GAC refused to cross Ford A, he left the battle. Whatever he intended to do, he threw away and correlation of forces and means. He launched a frntal attack against a totally different group of Indians miles away, and they kicked his ass.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 4, 2015 21:59:04 GMT -6
When did it become fact Custer thought Reno would only hit a small segment of the huge village? In any case, Custer wasn't aware of there being more than one village at the Washita till it was painfully brought to his attention by Godfrey, I think, and that long after the fact. He had no suspicion of more Indians before or during the attack. The big village at the LBH was near cheek by jowl. At the Washita, they were miles and miles apart and that in deep snow.
Still think only the somewhat less incompetent side won that day, and barely. What saved them was total lack of command and control, whereas Custer - even if he tried to exercise it beyond communication ability - still operated from erroneous assumptions. Agree, if the Indian village hadn't been so large, they'd have run as initially predicted and he'd have done okay, perhaps. They didn't run because they couldn't get organized at speed. When they didn't run, there was no Plan B, because why waste time? They ALWAYS ran.
That's very much a deficiency in the Army's Glossary of Terminology. A small circle of huts does not behave as a very, very large gathering of numerous circles of huts. A 'village' is not always a 'village' if the two extremes cannot react alike.
Still disagree with applying modern terms to this battle. I rather think that near nothing the 7th did falls easily under any of them, and this emphasizes they weren't trained that way, and it's a mistake to try and present them as examples of modern warfare technique.
Don't think Custer was as incompetent as others here, and truly think he knew he had to hit them fast with Reno committed and wasn't dorking about or waiting. Convinced he planned to hit them down MTC as soon as that came into view, but events previously discussed precluded it.
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