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Post by montrose on May 19, 2015 7:10:02 GMT -6
This is a theoretical. What if we were to design a book on the valley fight? What are the relevant issues that need to be discussed? How would you design such a book?
In my opinion, you would need a main narrative, but also must address "sidebar" discussions.
Target audience must be general public, with topics for the folks with more LBH knowledge in sidebars and appendices.
My intention here is to identify topics worthy of further discussion, basically what would be a chapter in a book.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 19, 2015 7:24:00 GMT -6
Just a couple to start the ball rolling William;
Topography: as the river, timber and the position of the village gave Reno little or no LOS until he got within carbine range.
How Reno was led to believe that he was going to be supported, and if this had an effect on the way he fought, for example if a commander sees that he is faced with fighting an enemy twice or three times his size over a large area with an exposed flank, may decide to withdraw, but.. if he thinks that support is local he will hold his ground.
Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 19, 2015 8:09:57 GMT -6
Tom had mentioned it and jogged my memory that I use the term also. Toolbox
What was in Reno's toolbox on what decisions would be associated with making the best available decisions.
For example what formations would he be able to chose from his toolbox as he moved down the valley.
For me as a horseman I would like to see something on that relationship between horse and trooper. I think there is something about being told the Indians were going for the horses that puts at best a tunnel vision about getting to your horse. Its not like a vehicle that is just going to be there. It's your personal mode of transportation and what happens if someone takes yours but everyone else finds theirs.
I would think that a breakout would be another example of something in Reno's toolbox
Regards
Steve
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Post by montrose on May 19, 2015 8:57:03 GMT -6
Steve,
One interesting fact of LBH. 10,000 horses, 2,000 warriors. I would assume as a fighter I would grab the first horse I saw. Yet the Indian accounts generally say that the fighters rode their own horses.
This implies that working with a horse you know and have trained with provides more combat power than just any horse. We live in a mechanized culture, where vehicles can not think independently and can not learn. I believe the horse rider relationship is grossly underestimated by modern historians.
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Post by jodak on May 19, 2015 9:30:16 GMT -6
Along those lines, it is curious to me that they could even find/identify their own horse(s) among the herd on short order. I know that some kept a preferred horse staked near their lodge, but it appears that many also went to the herd to obtain their horse.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 19, 2015 9:46:58 GMT -6
I wonder how much that highway has changed the lay of the land, as anyone new to the battle would like to see how Reno got cut off from the south, any mounted warriors would I guess, have to ride over that ground which is now this road system and that ruins any means of trying to describe to people how this was done.
only a small point I guess and you may think that it not that important, but if we are concentrating on only this segment of the battle then you would have to explain every little detail and add photos of the soldiers view out of the timber line, which would be unique only for that road.
Ian.
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Post by Beth on May 19, 2015 11:29:24 GMT -6
Along those lines, it is curious to me that they could even find/identify their own horse(s) among the herd on short order. I know that some kept a preferred horse staked near their lodge, but it appears that many also went to the herd to obtain their horse. I suspect the answer is the same as how we find a car in the parking lot, you know where you parked it. A couple horse questions I have, the difference between a cavalry horse and Indian pony Were the 7th's horses actually trained to do a charge Also there is the question that brought me to the board in the first place. Why no sabers. (I know the answers now of course) Beth
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Post by Beth on May 19, 2015 11:36:03 GMT -6
Another point I would like more information on is did the Indians start fires in the valley fight to stop the soldiers. Did they also try to use fire and smoke to get soldiers out of the timber.
Did all of Reno's troops end up in the Timber.
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Post by quincannon on May 19, 2015 11:38:49 GMT -6
I believe any such book should include as a chapter or, probably better, a lengthy appendix an authoritative discussion on tactics and focus in on the dragoon techniques utilized by mid 19th century U S cavalry.
We need to put to bed once and for all this absolutely silly idea that what Reno did when he exited the timber was a retreat rather than what it really was, a breakout from encirclement. We need the reader to understand the standard dragoon methodology of advancing as far forward as possible, until forced by hostile reaction to dismount and continue the assault on foot. We need to dismiss from the conscience thought of the reader that any defense was taking place in the valley episode, rather than what it was the push-pull of disputing a piece of ground. There are other areas to be addressed as well, and I am sure we will focus in on them as this thread progresses.
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Post by Beth on May 19, 2015 11:39:41 GMT -6
I wonder how much that highway has changed the lay of the land, as anyone new to the battle would like to see how Reno got cut off from the south, any mounted warriors would I guess, have to ride over that ground which is now this road system and that ruins any means of trying to describe to people how this was done. only a small point I guess and you may think that it not that important, but if we are concentrating on only this segment of the battle then you would have to explain every little detail and add photos of the soldiers view out of the timber line, which would be unique only for that road. Ian. Is the exact location of the timber know? Or is the size of the timber the unknown. Do we know what kind of trees made up the timber? or was it mostly scruffy brush? Beth
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Post by Beth on May 19, 2015 11:54:32 GMT -6
I believe any such book should include as a chapter or, probably better a lengthy appendix an authoritative discussion on tactics and focus in on the dragoon techniques utilized by mid 19th century U S cavalry. We need to put to bed once and for all this absolutely silly idea that what Reno did when he exited the timber was a retreat rather than what it really was, a breakout from encirclement. We need the reader to understand the standard dragoon methodology of advancing as far forward as possible, until forced by hostile reaction to dismount and continue the assault on foot. We need to dismiss from the conscience thought of the reader that any defense was taking place in the valley episode, rather than what it was the push-pull of disputing a piece of ground. There are other areas to be addressed as well, and I am sure we will focus in on them as this thread progresses. I agree. I know how having a common language to describe events is important. A year ago I didn't know the difference between a retreat and a breakout. Now I do and it's an important difference, not a to-may-toe --to-mah-toe thing. There are other terms that could use a bit of explaining--perhaps a glossary would be useful. Also was did Custer actually use the word charge or did he use attack. Does it matter? Would this alleged/proposed book be targeting future scholars, the casually interested or diehard battle fans?
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Post by tubman13 on May 19, 2015 12:04:31 GMT -6
Interesting picking this fight where it was and the way it was, it gave the NA's the village to move unmolested through their own protected territory to attack the soldiers at either end of the battlefield. The cavalry segments were grossly undermanned and out of supporting distance, once Custer mounted the ridge. He continued to compound this error.
Back to the valley. Were the NA's as unprepared for this attack as we are led to believe? Was the valley depression/dry stream bed to Reno's front actually filled with warriors by the time Reno approached? Was it Custer's idea that Reno was expendable, that if he held out long enough, Custer could do his work? Is that why the plan was not shared?. I know Reno was ordered to attack village/bring NA's to battle, what impact would we expect if Reno had actually drawn the warriors out and retreated causing the NA's to follow him, rather than forming a skirmish line? I think that could have actually worked to Custer's advantage, if he had shared plans and remained out of sight as he proceeded north.
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Post by dave on May 19, 2015 12:13:00 GMT -6
Beth A glossary has been one of the things DC has requested for many years. I think QC's idea about explaining tactics and what to call Reno's movement to Reno Hill could also be a part of the glossary. We need to remember the majority of members and visitors are not ex military and unfamiliar with the terminology used here. Regarding the role of the NCOs, I wonder if they are not like the secretarial staff at a university or any business. I found it much quicker and easier to deal with the senior secretary/office manager of the department I needed something. Just occurred to me. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on May 19, 2015 12:14:24 GMT -6
Beth: I believe attack, charge, and assault were pretty much interchangeable terms to the unwashed heathen of the 7th Cavalry. Actually charge and assault are very similar in meaning and I would have no heartburn with either being used, but attack has a much broader meaning, and I believe unsuitable.
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Post by quincannon on May 19, 2015 12:18:12 GMT -6
It needs to be more than a one or two line glossary entry Dave. It should leave absolutely nothing open to discussion. They are what they are, but if your target audience is not a member of the German General Staff, there must be a complete explanation of concept, not just a one liner.
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