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Post by quincannon on Jun 1, 2015 20:19:37 GMT -6
There are at least a half a zillion in Korea, for the NKPA and CCF mantra was just what they did to Reno in the valley, cut the line of communications and force a decision. It is the tactic of choice for large, but firepower weak armies the world over. No one here has ever mentioned it in light of all the drunken coward nonsense, but what Reno did is momentarily grab the initiative back from the hostiles.
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Post by Beth on Jun 1, 2015 20:34:54 GMT -6
There are at least a half a zillion in Korea, for the NKPA and CCF mantra was just what they did to Reno in the valley, cut the line of communications and force a decision. It is the tactic of choice for large, but firepower weak armies the world over. No one here has ever mentioned it in light of all the drunken coward nonsense, but what Reno did is momentarily grab the initiative back from the hostiles. You know I think I read things over and over that sometimes it just becomes words, then someone says something that brings everything into a total new focus--like that Reno grabbing the initiative. The conversation for the past couple days ago like about making caches and how it would have freed up so may people to fight plus Colt's post in "What should Custer have done" have been brilliant and eye opening. Thanks guys!
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Post by dave on Jun 1, 2015 21:50:07 GMT -6
One thing here is that people present the Reno breakout as unprecedented somehow. Surely some here can list some similar instances where commanders in a like situation have made a similar breakout. Is Reno unique? Cheers Mac Unless I am completely bonkers, the 1st Marine Division made a breakout from the Chosin Reservoir in December 1950. The marines were better organized and led. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2015 0:15:26 GMT -6
You are not bonkers. The 1st Marine Division (Reinf) broke out at Chosin and moved all the way to Wonson, where the finally entered the lines of the 3rd Infantry Division.
The 1st Battalion Glostershire Regiment broke out from Gloster Hill and their casualty rate was much higher than Reno's
Korea, especially in the early days of the summer of 1950 featured many company and platoon sized actions where those defending had to break out. Some were successful. Many were not. Many of those captured or who surrendered ended up in a road side ditch, hands tied with commo wire and a bullet in the back of the head.
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Post by welshofficer on Jun 2, 2015 2:34:18 GMT -6
Tom,
The Germans could have broken out for a period after the encirclement at Kaluch, but nobody would give the order. Hitler was never abandoning the city named after his enemy, and Paulus and Von Manstein knew that and never gave orders that would be countermanded from OKH and just see them sacked.
WO
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 2, 2015 3:03:54 GMT -6
The AKO-6 contemplated a breakout between the two rivers (Chir and Don) but this was not possible due to heavy fighting still taking place on nearly all sectors and the lack of fuel, they then decided to form a hedgehog defense with hoping to try a breakout later to the southwest. A message was sent to Hitler on the 23rd November from Paulus and his corps commanders appealing for “freedom of action”, Hitler replied and said that the 6th army was temporally encircled by Russian forces and that he knew that 6th army in this difficult situation would hold on bravely.
Ian.
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Post by welshofficer on Jun 2, 2015 4:31:03 GMT -6
The AKO-6 contemplated a breakout between the two rivers (Chir and Don) but this was not possible due to heavy fighting still taking place on nearly all sectors and the lack of fuel, they then decided to form a hedgehog defense with hoping to try a breakout later to the southwest. A message was sent to Hitler on the 23rd November from Paulus and his corps commanders appealing for “freedom of action”, Hitler replied and said that the 6th army was temporally encircled by Russian forces and that he knew that 6th army in this difficult situation would hold on bravely. Ian. Ian,
A break-out was possible, although it would have been costly. But not as costly as what ensued.
Hitler just got obsessed by the city name. AGB was after all the secondary operational move, protecting the left flank of AGA's primary thrust to seize the Caucasus oilfields. The 6th Army never should have entered Stalingrad, and doing so just concentrated the 6th Army and left the extended flanks completely defended by weaker Hungarian, Romanian and Italian Armies.
Either halt at the Volga, or cross north and south of the city and surround the Russian defenders.
WO
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 2, 2015 4:53:56 GMT -6
I recall reading that the original goal was to cut off the Volga and stop the flow of Soviet river traffic. The Germans did this when they reached the river north of Stalingrad, a part from Hitler’s infatuation with the place, the Germans could not push towards the oilfields with such a large Russian bridge head to their rear, so from a military point of view then needed to establish a firm flank along the Volga so that they could push towards Rostov, if they didn’t do this then they were worried about the Russians counter attacking on this flank.
Ian.
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Post by mac on Jun 2, 2015 5:33:54 GMT -6
Thank you all! Amazing isn't it that it is so often characterised as something cowardly or the act of a drunk, rather than as a manoeuvre that is commonly used in that type of situation. About time critics started to look at why Reno needed to perform that manoeuvre! Cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 2, 2015 5:41:16 GMT -6
Yes Mac, Reno was such a coward he rode out in front of his 140 men with little more than his Adjutant plus maybe a striker.
He was isolated and facing a huge camp with hundreds of defenders blocking his path, so he stands his ground (never retreated) and consolidates his position, every action that followed was dictated by the strength of the enemy and the terrain.
Ian.
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Post by mac on Jun 2, 2015 5:58:17 GMT -6
Hi Ian I am still awake as you see..but not for long! As you are well aware I make no claim to great military knowledge but I can read and think, sometimes logically, so it astounds me that people bend the logic to absurd ends to try to make more of this manoeuvre than what it was. Cheers (and goodnight mate)
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 2, 2015 6:12:20 GMT -6
Ok Mac goodnight, I still have another 10 hours left yet before I turn in. I too have no military back ground, but we still add our views as best we can, that's all we can do.
Ian.
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Post by welshofficer on Jun 2, 2015 7:17:46 GMT -6
Thank you all! Amazing isn't it that it is so often characterised as something cowardly or the act of a drunk, rather than as a manoeuvre that is commonly used in that type of situation. About time critics started to look at why Reno needed to perform that manoeuvre! Cheers Mac,
With Reno, it's best to differentiate between before and after the Bloody Knife shooting.
His advance into the valley was textbook. AM with G in reserve. He attacks GAM, with some of M detached as flankers against the timber/river. He pivots to MAG along the skirmish line. His problem is that his left flank is just dangling in the air, with so few soldiers.
Retreat to the bluffs was the only viable option he had, but it could have been better undertaken and no doubt would have been better undertaken in other circumstances i.e. if Reno was not wearing Bloody Knife's brains on his face.
Ian,
There was no need for AGB to occupy Stalingrad to secure AGA's left flank. Secure bridgeheads across the Volga to the north and south of the city would have more than sufficed. The German's lost their tactical supremacy when they engaged in street fighting, even without the Luftwaffe bombing the city into a Russian sniper's paradise.
WO
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2015 7:28:20 GMT -6
There is no requirement for military knowledge. If you find yourself in trouble, trouble that you cannot handle with what you have, and to delay only means you get yourself in deeper, and an opportunity presents itself, you look for the exit sign and do your best to get to that exit and use it.
If you, and your family were in a building that catches fire, and the fire, while staring small gets rather large quite quickly, to the point you cannot handle it. you get them out and go. I don't think anyone viewing those circumstances would say that you were a drunk or a coward for not staying and have yourself and your family destroyed by not staying and fighting the fire.
Reno was in the same situation. The only thing his detractors do in persisting as they do is hang a sign over their own heads saying avoid this person and their opinions for this person is a damned fool, leading you down the primrose path of ignorance persisting to the point of stupidity.
Reno is a very easy man to dislike. That makes him an easy target. You don't study what went on there to enable you to like or dislike. You study to ascertain truth as best you can.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 2, 2015 7:41:33 GMT -6
I think it goes back a little futher then that Justin, they diverted the 4th Panzer Army and sent it south to apparently to help 1st Panzer Army, and they just got in each others way. I am not suggesting the 4th PZ Army could have taken Stalingrad alone, but if they were not diverted they would have arrived earlier than they did.
Ian.
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