|
Post by welshofficer on Jun 8, 2015 18:32:52 GMT -6
Tom,
Calculate the time that Reno began his move towards the southern end of the village...
Calculate the time that you think that GAC would have his 5 companies at Ford D (if not whacked on Battle Ridge).....
Would you consider that direct support, if you were Reno....?
WO
|
|
rebcav
Junior Member
Posts: 56
|
Post by rebcav on Jun 8, 2015 19:59:26 GMT -6
Carry no water. Fear no one. Call a spade a spade. If that is not good enough, then I am not good enough. WO: If I thought you an Ian paid attention to tripe, I would send you both an embroidered hanky. Don't bother to check your mail box. "Undermine their pompous authority, reject their moral standards, make anarchy and disorder your trademarks, cause as much chaos and disruption as possible but never let them take you alive" Sid Vicious Don't know why but when I read your above quote I just kinda free associated Sid's quote. No disrespect intended. BTW, Happy Hour was awesome. Everyone have a great night. Aloha, Duane.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 8, 2015 20:11:30 GMT -6
It is not a quote I took from someone else Duane, It is the way I attempt to live my life. It's all mine.
A good friend of mine's tank was named for Sid Vicious at the Battle of 73 Easting in 1991.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 9, 2015 4:52:48 GMT -6
Tom, Calculate the time that Reno began his move towards the southern end of the village... Calculate the time that you think that GAC would have his 5 companies at Ford D (if not whacked on Battle Ridge)..... Would you consider that direct support, if you were Reno....? WO Grey: 3:03: Reno begins attack and sights Company F detail on the bluffs. 4:45: Left Wing and Headquarters Staff reach Ford D and sight non-combatants across the river. Fred: 12.25 (LST) 1:22 (CWT) Reno begins his move down the LBH valley. 2:45 (LST) 3:42 (CWT) Custer arrives at Ford D Would I class it as support? Defiantly not! Ian. PS, Happy Birthday Jag (not Jaguar)
|
|
|
Post by welshofficer on Jun 9, 2015 5:46:01 GMT -6
Tom, Calculate the time that Reno began his move towards the southern end of the village... Calculate the time that you think that GAC would have his 5 companies at Ford D (if not whacked on Battle Ridge)..... Would you consider that direct support, if you were Reno....? WO Grey: 3:03: Reno begins attack and sights Company F detail on the bluffs. 4:45: Left Wing and Headquarters Staff reach Ford D and sight non-combatants across the river. Fred: 12.25 (LST) 1:22 (CWT) Reno begins his move down the LBH valley. 2:45 (LST) 3:42 (CWT) Custer arrives at Ford D Would I class it as support? Defiantly not! Ian. PS, Happy Birthday Jag (not Jaguar) Ian,
3.42pm is the Fred time of the Yates recce at Ford D, not Yates/Keogh applying pressure there....
WO
|
|
|
Post by alfakilo on Jun 9, 2015 7:04:06 GMT -6
What matters is what happened in the valley and why. What is the difference between a retreat and a break out? Was a real plan ever shared and when? I agree!! Being an air force guy, I'm not familiar with army definitions and such, and so when I too wondered about different kinds of retreats, I found the US Army FM 3-90, the manual on tactics. What I learned, I think, is that the word 'retreat' has been replaced with 'retrograde'. A 'breakout' is a specific type of retrograde that results from being encircled by enemy forces. Apologies in advance for any mistakes on this!! As I have mentioned earlier, I too am interested in whatever 'plan' existed and especially in how it was communicated. I suspect, all said and done, that this 'plan' may well have been unworkable from its inception, but as with most things regarding this subject, we'll likely never know...hence the enduring fascination with the LBH! AK Note: Here is an extract from FM 3-90, section D-10: BREAKOUT FROM AN ENCIRCLEMENT A breakout is an offensive and a defensive operation. An encircled force normally attempts to conduct breakout operations when one of the following four conditions exist: • The commander directs the breakout or the breakout falls within the intent of a higher commander. • The encircled force does not have sufficient relative combat power to defend itself against enemy forces attempting to reduce the encirclement. • The encircled force does not have adequate terrain available to conduct its defense. • The encircled force cannot sustain itself long enough to be relieved by forces outside the encirclement. www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/fm3-90%2801%29.pdf
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 9, 2015 7:17:16 GMT -6
Justin I knew you meant that, so wouldn't the time be more or less the same if it was two companies of five?
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 9, 2015 7:42:37 GMT -6
Andy: Air Force guy or not, you nailed it, but people will still refer to it as a retreat, out of ignorance, habit, stupidity, or most probably that is what they always did, because they read it was a retreat in some book or other whose author probably would know neither retreat or breakout, from a hemorrhoid, AND NEVER STOPPED TO THINK.
A retrograde is any rearward movement conducted for any reason away from the direction of the enemy. A retreat is conducted in a specific manner as a result of action taken by the enemy. A breakout is not necessarily a retrograde conducted to move away from an enemy. It may in fact be a purely offensive move such as a breakout from a salient. A breakout from encirclement is always retrograde, by its very nature, conducted in two phases, the first phase being the breakout itself, an attack, and the second phase commencing when contact has broken, that can be either maintaining current position upon break of contact, or further retrograde, moving ever further away from last contact.
In the case under discussion it was the former, maintaining position upon breaking contact, but had not Benteen come up contact would have most probably not been broken.
|
|
alanw
Junior Member
Posts: 74
|
Post by alanw on Jun 9, 2015 9:32:17 GMT -6
Andy: Air Force guy or not, you nailed it, but people will still refer to it as a retreat, out of ignorance, habit, stupidity, or most probably that is what they always did, because they read it was a retreat in some book or other whose author probably would know neither retreat or breakout, from a hemorrhoid, AND NEVER STOPPED TO THINK. A retrograde is any rearward movement conducted for any reason away from the direction of the enemy. A retreat is conducted in a specific manner as a result of action taken by the enemy. A breakout is not necessarily a retrograde conducted to move away from an enemy. It may in fact be a purely offensive move such as a breakout from a salient. A breakout from encirclement is always retrograde, by its very nature, conducted in two phases, the first phase being the breakout itself, an attack, and the second phase commencing when contact has broken, that can be either maintaining current position upon break of contact, or further retrograde, moving ever further away from last contact. In the case under discussion it was the former, maintaining position upon breaking contact, but had not Benteen come up contact would have most probably not been broken. Whether it was a retrograde, or retreat, you will never convince everyone that anything after the 'attack', or breakout, was anything but 'running away'. Whatever it was, I think Reno did the right thing - of course Benteen's timely arrival also played a part in it becoming the right course of action.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 9, 2015 9:48:36 GMT -6
One thing about vocabulary we can change here and now, and it badly requires changing as it is totally inaccurate and presents the wrong word picture. Village in our usage should be changed to tribal circles. The tribal circle was the norm. A cluster of tribal circles such as seen at LHB was not the norm. If you think you are attacking Rama Colorado, and all the Ramas in Colorado turn out to somehow have clustered together to something the size of Denver, you have a big surprise coming. Shaw: Borrowing another phrase from Georgie and tweaking it Reconnaissance, Reconnaissance, Toujour Reconnaissance. TOM: Our concentration at that time was to turn Christmas help into Year round on call help, that when called the night before, would show up at 7 AM the next morning and perform. The ANG was far ahead in this concept, and I attribute that to the USAF throwing off all of the previous militia adverse concepts of the Army when the became a separate service. We battled an obsolete attitude, and we have not won yet but we are winning. Lessons Learned: I know of no formal evaluation of LBH as a whole at the near time. There is a, I believe, biannual exercise centered on this battle, and the lessons to be learned from it conducted by the Command and General Staff College. I also know that there is a farmed out version of this exercise for unit use. Some years ago, the 3rd Cavalry when stationed here used it to exercise all three of their ground squadrons, and I have seen, but do not own their farmed out version. Good point. I have trouble with the vocabulary used regarding the Indians. Is a tribal circle by itself is a village? I would think so. Also and more important does each tribal circle act independent to the others even though they are in close proximity. Regards AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 9, 2015 9:54:43 GMT -6
Alan: That is what a breakout from encirclement is, a formalized running away.
Benteen's arrival did nothing more that prevent a change in venue for Reno's total destruction. Not all breakouts achieve success. Just off the top I would say judging only by history it is not even a fifty-fifty proposition.
People say, and will continue to say, mainly what they are told by people who have no clue what they are talking about. Saying garbage repeatedly still makes it garbage. Thinking about it is I suspect too hard for some folks.
I think Reno did the right thing too. My only point in continually harping on this point, is that if Reno did conduct a retreat he did a disgraceful job of it. On the other hand if it was what it was, a breakout, Reno conducted the action as it should have been conducted, and unlike many others he got away with it, with a little help and the intervention of Divine Providence of course.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 9, 2015 9:56:41 GMT -6
Steve: I see you have come back from where, Indiana?
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 9, 2015 10:02:18 GMT -6
Richard, Ricardo, Dick, or even DC. If Montrose was referring to DC, then he erred in using Robert. The man's name is Richard. And while I would clearly fail in any sort of sensitivity training... ugh!-- it has always been a personal bug-a-boo of mine when people make no effort to get a name right or the spelling of one's name right. Knowing Montrose as I do, I know he would never intentionally pull a disrespectful gaffe, so if he was referring to DC, like I said, he made a simple error. I think it is extremely important to show people enough respect to know, pronounce, and spell their names correctly. Best wishes, Derf. Fred Some time back Will explained his difficulty with posting and seeing. So I agree it is a simple error. I find his posts in general greatly increase my knowledge base and accept them as they are. Regards Steve
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 9, 2015 10:19:22 GMT -6
Steve: I see you have come back from where, Indiana? Chuck Drove straight back with only 1 hour rest. 1,665 miles. Teaching a law enforcement use of personal watercraft course Friday on Lake Powell and working an OUI checkpoint on Saturday on the Colorado river under the I-40 bridge. Regards Steve
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 9, 2015 10:22:58 GMT -6
Been posting about that exact issue - a Glossary of Terminology - for more than two decades. If you started today and were able to enforce a Glossary of Terminology, how to clarify the contradictory usage of the words back in the day if 'village' meant something different in the back quotes and was more specified and accurate today? And not that long ago: We had to destroy a village to save it. I knew what it meant, I've always thought: we had to destroy the village as a place of residence to preserve it as a necessary military key point in our possession. If I'm not wrong, that's a modern version of village having two distinct meanings.
Other similar issues: the map at the RCOI says MTC was Reno Creek. How do we know what is being referenced when the term in used? How would an Indian use it anyway?
Addendum to original above:
Beth,
"I find being told that my opinion isn't worth considering an apparent reason." Except nobody said that. What was said was this: "Concern for my delicate feelings is both weird and not necessary. Aside from Montrose, Fred, and AZ there's nobody here with regularity I take seriously enough to be upset about if they disagree." I don't get upset if you disagree with me is a long way from saying your opinion isn't worth considering. I doubt you get upset if people disagree with you unless they are those with whom you've communicated for a decade or so and have earned regard for, and that would not include me, and you wouldn't be upset. In any case, you're new and haven't been here with regularity.
As Merkel points out and all evidence supports, it's QC who's the biggest crybaby and object of annoyance. I've posted very seldom of late but there's a lot of posts addressing or referencing me because you, among others, claim I said something I did not.
|
|