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Post by fred on Sept 22, 2014 12:49:13 GMT -6
3) Calhoun Hill? Custer remains there after Ford B. To me, this one was the objective and the only relevant one. I would bet a dollar to a donut, Custer banked on this location and banked on Benteen being there by 4 PM. Custer knew the route; knew Benteen was on his way; and knew the terrain and the speeds because he had already done it. He also knew Benteen. The only bogie was Reno... and it turned out to be a beaut!!! A primo gamble and a beaut; and Custer lost it. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 22, 2014 12:49:52 GMT -6
It does not matter Ian. This is an exercise in Point A to Point B-C-D-E time measurement without roadside signs, stopping for a burger and MacDonald's or the views from scenic overlooks.
What I am trying to determine here is that when Custer issued the order to Benteen what would he expect the elapsed time it would take to be had he stopped and waited at any of those four places mentioned. That's all. Just what his time expectation would be unencumbered by any event that was yet to take place. We must remove all of those events if we wish to get the "expectation" answer.
That is why trying to determine answers to things like these are so damned hard. We let what we know occurred get in the way of our thinking through to the answer to the question asked.
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Post by fred on Sept 22, 2014 12:52:38 GMT -6
I just noticed, "... remains there...."
Now that would be an interesting scenario, wouldn't it? Because by 4 PM, Crazy Horse had broken across Battle Ridge. What would a charging Benteen have done to the whole picture? Another 115 dead soldiers... or a victory?
Interesting...
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 22, 2014 12:54:54 GMT -6
All this talk this morning prompts me to ask this question, the answer to which I have not a clue, but is relevant. Given that Custer sends his message to Benteen somewhere/time between 3411 and the head of Cedar Coulee (which I think he did), and given that Custer would have no idea of the fate of Reno at the time the message was sent, therefore no consideration of Benteen crossing Reno's path, AND that the message was intended by Custer to have Benteen join him. What would be the BEST POSSIBLE time for Benteen with the packs reaching Custer at these four following locations? 1) The point where the message was sent? Custer remains stationary. 2) L-N-C Ridge complex? Custer attains the high ground, stays there, and does not go to Ford B. 3) Calhoun Hill? Custer remains there after Ford B. 4) A theoretical attack position somewhere in the vicinity of Cemetery Ridge? Remember Benteen's battalion and the packs, all of them. No fudging and saying that he would only have brought the ammo. That is not what the message says and Benteen knows only what the message says. Make your time estimates consistent with an unknown enemy situation on Benteen's part, therefore you must consider march security in your time estimates. Expect Benteen to make the BEST possible time, and do not let this personally, grudge holding, nonsense enter into it. NOW, regardless of your personal estimate of these times, you may conclude that any time you come up with is the time that Custer wasted. Make sure you include the time it takes for Martini to reach Benteen. All of the above questions, make me want a Martini. But what the heck, I will go for the Custer remains stationary. First, you have a fair view of the terrain and you are closer to your support. Use the wait time for your scouts to do some recon, send an officer or senior e.m. with the scouting parties, heck go along yourself if you want an eye on. Be sure you are in a defendable position before you scout. You might even be close enough to keep tabs on the Reno fight! Time answer, best case wait near 2 hrs. for Benteen and packs, maybe a bit longer. It has been slightly over 20 years since I spent the better part of the day on a horse. Obviously the further you go the longer the wait. Remember, Custer has no idea Benteen may break off the scout he sent him on. The whole thing is a crap shoot. I await AZ's answer regarding time. Regards, Tom
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Post by shatonska on Sept 22, 2014 12:55:46 GMT -6
All this talk this morning prompts me to ask this question, the answer to which I have not a clue, but is relevant. Given that Custer sends his message to Benteen somewhere/time between 3411 and the head of Cedar Coulee (which I think he did), and given that Custer would have no idea of the fate of Reno at the time the message was sent, therefore no consideration of Benteen crossing Reno's path, AND that the message was intended by Custer to have Benteen join him. What would be the BEST POSSIBLE time for Benteen with the packs reaching Custer at these four following locations? 1) The point where the message was sent? Custer remains stationary. 2) L-N-C Ridge complex? Custer attains the high ground, stays there, and does not go to Ford B. 3) Calhoun Hill? Custer remains there after Ford B. 4) A theoretical attack position somewhere in the vicinity of Cemetery Ridge? Remember Benteen's battalion and the packs, all of them. No fudging and saying that he would only have brought the ammo. That is not what the message says and Benteen knows only what the message says. Make your time estimates consistent with an unknown enemy situation on Benteen's part, therefore you must consider march security in your time estimates. Expect Benteen to make the BEST possible time, and do not let this personally, grudge holding, nonsense enter into it. NOW, regardless of your personal estimate of these times, you may conclude that any time you come up with is the time that Custer wasted. Make sure you include the time it takes for Martini to reach Benteen. your questions are very smart because if you think about it something doesn't look right , the problem is that we have a lot more questions with not decisive answer , again packs are really packs or only extra ammunitions (an issue Custer could have settled before the battle with his officiers : " in case .... etc") because Custer moving north in an attack mode makes no sense with the pack train one explanation i see is FEAR , something had changed in the mind (the village even if partial was huge) , Custer intended to scout gaining time to reunite his forces but was forced on the ridge the other is confusion and exagerate self consideration : while waiting i can ride anywhere east of the lbh and maybe find a chance to get some non-coms sorry for my spelling and confusion
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Post by quincannon on Sept 22, 2014 13:01:30 GMT -6
Fred: I could buy lead elements reaching CH by 1600 hours. Close by 16:30.
You damn Custer by you last post more than I ever have, perhaps without realizing it. You illustrate the point magnificently. If Custer expected him by 1600, he should have realized that he did not have until 1600.
Pack train in the attack is another one of those Ford B gifts. You can attack. You can cover a pack train. You can't do both,
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Post by quincannon on Sept 22, 2014 13:16:33 GMT -6
Tom: I would be the last one to deprive you of your Martini. Two, no three olives.
An hour and a half to two to reach and close at the 3411/Cedar Coulee vicinity sounds reasonable.
Shat: Custer/Cooke said packs. I am going to make the assumption that Mathey put the ammo mules in the lead as an act of initiative. Perhaps it was preplanned or SOP, but I don't think we know that.
I agree that under prevailing circumstances that L-N-C was the last place any of that reinforcement, packs and all could have reached and remained alive.
That is immaterial, for I am not after that. I am after what time Custer expected it to take, and by extension did he have any right to have those expectations. Fred's answer addresses the fact that apparently he had no such right. No matter what Benteen could not reach the third destination in a timely manner. That makes the fourth a moot point.
My underlying therefore sneaky objective here was to illustrate that Custer by his movements and unrealistic expectations were his undoing. My just saying it does not make it nearly as valid, as having you all prove my point by your answers.
So here's the deal once again. I (Custer) issue the order. If I stay here it will take A amount of time for him to reach me. If I go to L-N-C it will take B amount of time. If reaching L-N-C I proceed to Calhoun it will take C amount of time. Should I decide to go further north beyond Calhoun it will take D amount of time. Now Custer could have calculated all this in his mind. Evidently he must have, BUT, he ran out of time between B and C. Beyond L-N-C he had no reasonable expectation of support. A good commander knows time, distance, enemy reaction as well as he knows his kids birthdays. I will let you all decide upon good.
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Post by shatonska on Sept 22, 2014 13:47:12 GMT -6
[quote author=" quincannon" source="/post/101546/thread" timestamp="1411413393" That is immaterial, for I am not after that. I am after what time Custer expected it to take, and by extension did he have any right to have those expectations. Fred's answer addresses the fact that apparently he had no such right. No matter what Benteen could not reach the third destination in a timely manner. That makes the fourth a moot point. My underlying therefore sneaky objective here was to illustrate that Custer by his movements and unrealistic expectations were his undoing. My just saying it does not make it nearly as valid, as having you all prove my point by your answers. [/quote] yes , unrealistic expectations but why ? was he forced away ? or because of his ego ? or he knew Reno was retreating east of the lbh and this gave him confidence in a safe position of all the regiment east of the lbh so he could move safely north (his false assumption) ? because how could he think packs could reach him on battle ridge before night in battle conditions ? we should know why he ended up on battle ridge , i read many theories about it but none has cleared all of my questions
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Post by quincannon on Sept 22, 2014 14:03:45 GMT -6
Shat: I believe those unrealistic expectations, and it is only my opinion, are based upon Custer thinking that the enemy would do just what he expected them to do. Don't know if you war game or not, but it is like playing a war game without an opponent. Stupid really. because the results of those one player games can only be what you want them to be.
There are three things that should be graven on the foreheads of every man/woman that assumes command. ONE - It is not what you think the enemy will do that matters. It is what they are capable of doing. TWO - The enemy, every enemy, all enemies ALWAYS have a vote. THREE - Some of those enemies are smarter than you are.
Whatever reason Custer was on battle ridge does not matter. What matters is Custer being there meant that he was fighting the Indians battle not them fighting his. The moment he moved there from B he allowed the Indians first to seize and then retain the initiative. What is worse is that he did not even notice the fact.
These are mortal sins Shat. Were Custer Roman Catholic he is in dire need of going to Confession, or have Sister Saint Malevolence tan his scrawny little butt with a yardstick.
OFF TOPIC
Since I do not post over on the neighbor's patch would someone who does be kind enough to inform Sally that the Company B, 1/22 Regiment she is looking for is most probably the Company B, 1st Battalion, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment of Foot of the British Army which in 1881 became the Cheshire Regiment, and whose history is today contained in the Mercian Regiment. It was the 1/22 that led me to this in that the U S Army used no such designations until the 20th century.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 23, 2014 3:04:25 GMT -6
Chuck, I just read over your posts from last night, and I see that I totally missed the point of your exercise, I put it down to tiredness as I was dropping off by nine and asleep by half ten;
Never the less, looking back I wonder just what Custer expected of Benteen, if he estimated that it took him around an hour to get from the lone tepee to the place he sent the note, and then assuming that Benteen had broken off his scout and re-joined the main trail, he can only guess that Martini could take between 20-30 minutes to find the Captain, so say 30 minutes ride for Martini then another 45 minutes to get back to the 3411 area (I think I am being generous here, as I am not taking the pack train into account) but then things are compounded more the fact Custer carried on moving, so in that 30 minutes it took for Martini to find Benteen, Custer had probably travelled halfway down Cedar Coulee, so every step Custer makes takes him further away from his support.
I would guess that Custer thought that Benteen would be between 45-60 minutes behind him, and once the command stopped on say L-N-C, the clock would start ticking down, but when he moved off this ridge line and fragmented, is when he lost the initiative, and if Benteen had arrived on the L-N-C position around an hour later, Calhoun may have already fallen and Custer was being pressed back onto LSH, which would place Benteen in a hell of a predicament, he has three choices I am afraid, throw his men into an all-out assault, take up defensive positions or pull back.
The Cheshire Regiment is around my neck of the woods, the river Mersey (Mercia) used to be the boundary between the two great counties of Lancashire and Cheshire, and around here we had units based from the Cheshire’s and the South Lancs.
Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 23, 2014 3:46:55 GMT -6
Sorry about taking the thread off course.
Chuck, I tried solo Wargamming years ago, I remember thumbing through a book about it in Liverpool library, I took some ideas off it and threw in a few of my own;
1/ Attacking Force (this had to be double the defending force) 2/ Defending Force (in prepared defences with support assets) 3/ Objective 4/ Tactical Reserves available to the defenders and what time they could arrive (Sounds like Custer and Benteen)
The grade of your officers are done by throwing a dice, so say you have a company with three platoon commanders, you would dice for each one, 1-2 (green) 3-4 (average) 5-6 (seasoned), and write out orders for each platoon and their objectives. Now this is the hardest part, how do you position your opposing force, well I used to pick an area off a local map and try and represent this on the board, usually with a village or bridge for an objective, and place my support weapons covering the likely avenues for attack, and how do you send in your attack knowing full well what they are walking into to, well the only way is to make out objective cards, write down on black cards three or more routs of attack and shuffle these and pick one, this is your route and you must stick to it, if you run into enemy fire then you take a moral test and this is where the officer grading comes into play, as this is played out in the moral rules.
I would restrict the game time to say 60 moves, each move takes one minute to complete, and who ever holds the objective after 60 moves is the victor.
Try throwing an infantry company supported by three tanks plus an artillery battery (off board) against an infantry platoon with a couple of MMGs and an anti-tank gun defending a bridge with a couple of buildings surrounding it, give the defenders a reserve of another infantry platoon in trucks and an assault gun, and these will arrive on the board on move 40.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 23, 2014 6:05:44 GMT -6
Ian: I stopped war gaming ages ago when I moved to Colorado, and after my son beat the snot out of me while I was playing the confederate side at Fredericksburg. I had all the advantages of terrain and position. He had a river to cross and a long ridge line to overcome. He beat me because I fell into the same trap Custer did. I was playing based upon what I expected to happen, what I thought he would do, rather than what he could do. I should add that my son was a trained soldier and an excellent small unit tactician and leader. I took him and the situation for granted and lost, lost badly, not only tactically but operationally as well as he cut me off from my supplies at Guinea Station.
Never had much of a chance to play out here. No opponents and as I said my efforts to solo a game always ended with me winning as I was prone to do as the opposition just what my friendly side wanted me to do. Did not make much sense to continue, but I never forgot the lesson, that being, like football, on any given day you may kick the can of defeat, because someone is better than you are, and you took them for granted. It is a fatal sin.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 23, 2014 6:06:06 GMT -6
Tom
For a ball park figure I would use 6 mph for a determined speed but with tired horses moving out of Reno Creek. The trot is most likely the best ground covering gait and 6 mph would be on the lower end of its speed. If Benteen had a gaited horse he would still be walking but the other horses would be trotting. They could move to a canter on flat areas to increase speed. The problem is that leaving Reno Creek is uphill and a pretty good grade to move fast without a short distance goal. Benteen would not know how far he needed to travel which effects the choice of gaits.
Custer reached the point of leaving Reno Creek after moving downhill in general and not a real steep incline. His horses would be in relatively better shape than Benteen's at the point where they exit Reno Creek.
Martini comes back to Benteen with a tired horse and he describes the gait as just above a walk. At 5 mph an increase in speed would move into the trot.
To me the bottom line is that you have to be there under the conditions to know the horses capabilities. I trust the military officers to move with speed but maintain the formation sufficient to be ready to maneuver and engage.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 23, 2014 6:12:10 GMT -6
Here is a panoramic shot from 3411. Another gorgeous shot from Mr. Andrews. Steve, I have downloaded that and will be using it with your permission. Best wishes, Fred. You have my permission Fred and if you want I can email you the picture that was not reduced in pixel size. Regards Steve
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Post by montrose on Sept 23, 2014 6:26:35 GMT -6
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