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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 22, 2014 8:06:44 GMT -6
Yes I agree 100% with what both of you are saying, Custer should not have divided his Regiment and once divided he should not have rode into the village via Ford B, but we must take things in the context of reality, he did divide and I don’t think he did attack across the ford, it’s almost like saying then that he realised he never had the resources with 200+ men, and he had sent word back for more, and in the meantime let’s keep moving and hopefully we can keep them at bay and find the northern end and roll it up with around nine Companies.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 22, 2014 8:20:48 GMT -6
Ian: Let us just say for a moment that Custer could have kept the Indians off his back until he could have been reinforced by Benteen, Reno, or both. Considering the time it would have taken to accomplish this Custer could not have rolled up anything. He would still be on the wrong side of the river. The Indians would be concentrated. More than likely the families and old folks would be headed south and west. All surprise was gone. No matter what he could or would have done at that point would still mean he had failed in his mission. Timeliness, like cleanliness, as we learned those many years ago from the nuns is next to Godliness.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 22, 2014 8:32:19 GMT -6
Very true Chuck, but I cannot think of any other reason why he would first send for Benteen and then place the rump of his command on a hill, and not only that he moved north with 80 men, none of which sounds like a force which is attacking, assaulting or anything, on the offensive maybe, but with L Company on the defensive.
If he thought the he had to move with all haste and cut these buggers off then why didn’t he do it with every man in his five Companies, just no logic to it, none at all.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Sept 22, 2014 8:39:48 GMT -6
I would never be able to see these places with my own eyes because I am limited to paved areas so your pictures are invaluable to me. Any time, Beth. If you want pictures of other places, just ask. I think I have more shots from everywhere than I even know how to organize. The only place where I have none is from the heights of Luce and Nye-Cartwright. That will be rectified next June. Glad you enjoy them. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 22, 2014 8:42:07 GMT -6
Here is a panoramic shot from 3411. Another gorgeous shot from Mr. Andrews. Steve, I have downloaded that and will be using it with your permission. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 22, 2014 8:49:18 GMT -6
The whole thing Ian, betrays uncertainty on Custer's part, a grasping at a last straw to salvage something. He sent for Benteen on a wish and a promise that never developed, if you conclude that he was sending for Benteen to join with him, not Reno. Given that this is an agreed upon conclusion, and I don't think that is a universal belief, it was Custer that was doing the Doo Wop Two Step, unable to do anything offensively, a waste of time, made by his own hand.
There is no short cut on the golden road to glory. Some poor soul still has to trudge along the path, and trudging takes time, and time and the opportunity time presents waits for no man.
You can, anyone can spend the next thousand years trying to determine what Custer did, the rational behind it, and the only answer you will ever come up with is the same as Benteen concluded on 27 June 76. He F'ed up big time. It really is that simple
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Post by fred on Sept 22, 2014 8:56:03 GMT -6
You can see were Fred was going with the notion that Custer was feeling his way round the village.... If Custer didn’t know how far this place stretched then he would be attacking blind, it seems obvious to me that charging into a village of this size without finding outlying areas is foolish, especially with only 200+ (a Company). ... you can see that he wanted to find the outer rim, plus it would seem from his note to Benteen that he knew he would need the extra Battalions. Ian, Very well put. The only thing I might add is that Custer wanted to bag the lot. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 22, 2014 9:08:01 GMT -6
The bottom of MTC/Ford B is wide, wide enough to deploy 5 companies of the 7th in attack formation.... But then you have many more questions. Can I cut through and disperse the pony herd, turn south and return to Reno and concentrate my force along with Reno and hold the NA's until Benteen and packs arrive? We know the answer now, no Reno would have been gone. Next, I know I have warriors to the south of me, but what about the north? When I leave this ford area should I return south, the way I came to reunite the command for concentration of force? Or should I get back on the yellow brick road to the north after leaving the ford? Yes is the answer here as he had no conceptualized plan that was shared with his subordinates, besides he knows the Wizard of OZ is not to the south. A lot of people who advocate an attack across Ford B do not recognize the problems you bring up, above. Even at the end of the ridge, Custer was still some 500 yards from the river and the opposition, while not massive, was sharp. Even if Smith-- who I believe deployed at the water's edge-- could see the final end of the village and tell Custer such, there was still the issue of Keogh, a mile to the rear. To attack would have taken time and who knows what the opposition would have been by that time. In addition, an attack across a river is always dangerous, regardless of its fordability. Then the issue pops up-- as you stated-- north? or south? And in either direction, what about Custer's rear? To my way of thinking you do not attack the middle or the near middle, especially with a limited force. If he had Benteen, then maybe it becomes a feasible operation, but even then, I would have questions. Tom... load them on Photobucket, then download the URL to here. That's what I did with the "turning into MTC photo." It was small enough to load here, but every time I tried loading it it came in upside down. Photobucket is really good and very easy to use. If you set up your account there, you can organize your "album" and if you want to post a picture here you simply click on the lower of the four choices, it copies the URL automatically, then just paste it here. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 22, 2014 9:09:21 GMT -6
Had I been an Indian, Custer could have given me no greater gift than to cross at Ford B. Yep! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 22, 2014 9:16:51 GMT -6
Oh that reminds me, Tom do you have Microsoft paint on your computer? Most do, and if you transfer you picture to that and save it as a jpeg image, this will shrink it down to below “one meg” and you can post it on the board, try it Fred’s way if you have photo bucket as this will give you a better result.
Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 22, 2014 9:24:07 GMT -6
Charging a village would like fighting in built up areas, your force can lose its integrity and its focus, and then we have the factor of a fair amount of your command being green, plus lack of training and weapons being limited to six shots, Hmm…well it doesn’t bode well to me, I just can’t see anyone re-emerging from the melee.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 22, 2014 9:34:38 GMT -6
All this talk this morning prompts me to ask this question, the answer to which I have not a clue, but is relevant.
Given that Custer sends his message to Benteen somewhere/time between 3411 and the head of Cedar Coulee (which I think he did), and given that Custer would have no idea of the fate of Reno at the time the message was sent, therefore no consideration of Benteen crossing Reno's path, AND that the message was intended by Custer to have Benteen join him. What would be the BEST POSSIBLE time for Benteen with the packs reaching Custer at these four following locations?
1) The point where the message was sent? Custer remains stationary.
2) L-N-C Ridge complex? Custer attains the high ground, stays there, and does not go to Ford B.
3) Calhoun Hill? Custer remains there after Ford B.
4) A theoretical attack position somewhere in the vicinity of Cemetery Ridge?
Remember Benteen's battalion and the packs, all of them. No fudging and saying that he would only have brought the ammo. That is not what the message says and Benteen knows only what the message says. Make your time estimates consistent with an unknown enemy situation on Benteen's part, therefore you must consider march security in your time estimates. Expect Benteen to make the BEST possible time, and do not let this personally, grudge holding, nonsense enter into it.
NOW, regardless of your personal estimate of these times, you may conclude that any time you come up with is the time that Custer wasted.
Make sure you include the time it takes for Martini to reach Benteen.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 22, 2014 9:48:22 GMT -6
Chuck, I am sure that I have read that it took nearly an hour from the time Custer wrote the note to the time his men reached the bottom of MTC, and that was without any mules, plus when Benteen received the note the pack train pack was still behind, so he would have to either wait and unite or move on and let them follow him.
The thing we should look at here is this, when Benteen reaches the trail near 3411 what was Custer's situation, because he could be still around an hours ride away.
Then what would Custer’s situation be when Benteen emerges out of Cedar.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 22, 2014 10:19:23 GMT -6
Ian: Custer's situation is immaterial to computing the times. What I am trying to determine here is what time elapsed would Custer expect had he acted in any one of the four ways listed. What happened to him during any of those periods is outside the scope of discussion. Once the times are computed though it then becomes relevant. If you can see, and are unable to take advantage o f what you see, because of time lag, the seeing ain't worth a hill of beans.
What I forgot to say though was the times computed must be closing times, and not the time of first element arrival. Using first arrival time is like kissing your sister, nice, but also meaningless.
There must also be time added in the fourth estimate. Meeting with Keogh on Calhoun, before going to the theoretical attack position must be factored in.
What I am trying to achieve here is an appreciation of time required to execute - the time between the seeing and the shootin.
PS: A very quick horse and mule ignorant guesstimate on my part for the fourth question would be on the order of three and a half hours minimum. A pitiful example of too little, much too late I think.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 22, 2014 12:31:22 GMT -6
Would I be far off the mark to say that when Benteen received the note, Reno was beaten and Custer was in MTC, thus maybe past the point of saviour, of course he wouldn’t know that, but every move forward past that point, would put him in more and more danger, so if Benteen did manage to by-pass Reno, then we could estimate his arrival in MTC to coincide with Custer trying to defend cemetery hill and Keogh under heavy pressure to hold his end, by that time I would expect deep coulee to be alive with Indians, so the whole area would be a bad place to get caught with a pack train in tow.
Ian.
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