Post by godagesil on Oct 31, 2023 17:12:17 GMT -6
If the Fred featured prominently on this thread is Fredrick Wagner he passed away last year. But not before authoring the book, Strategy of Defeat at the Little Big Horn.
As to the discussion, albeit nearly ten years old on the various cartridge evidence, let me add this.
Scott, Fox et al had the Nebraska Highway Patrol do the forensic analysis of the cartridge cases and bullets. They were able to determine that some were fired in specific weapons and trace the movement of the weapons around the battlefield.
In addition they were able to determine the number of individual weapons used based on the recovered artifacts. Now mind you, at no time were the field studies trying to recover ALL the artifacts. The survey design let them recover an estimated 30% of the artifacts. They tested this estimate by completely covering some smaller selected areas and did in fact recover an additional 60% of artifacts in those areas.
Now knowing that the number of individual weapons identified only represented around 30% of those present, it is possible to give a statistical estimate of the number of say, Henrys and Winchesters present. The number came out to around 400 and change. Now mind you, not all of these were arrayed against George and his five companies. Some were only used on Custer field or Reno field based on the evidence recovered.
I agree that the battle needs a good reassessment based on available evidence. There is a focus on what took place inside the park boundary when there is historical evidence that Custer's battalion suffered casualties in areas around Nye Cartwright ridge and areas to the south. Up to five sets of human remains were reported found AFTER all the burials and markers were placed.
In addition Scott found an additional eleven cedar stakes in various places, like north of Last Stand Hill and north west of Finley Finkel ridge that were never marked with white marble markers. They are in amidst cavalry relic fields and Indian bullets and cartridges. So what happened there and why doesn't anyone address it in their books?
I was a mapping scientist and looking at aerial photos and the tools available on Google Earth, I call into question lot of things based on mere ballistics.
As pointed out in a previous post, only a fool would be shooting at a target 400 yards away with a weapon using a pistol cartridge that was effective out to around 200 yards. The Indians were also using captured .45-55 cartridges in their .50 rifles. It shows to me, that despite what some would have us believe, the Indians knew little to nothing about the the ballistics of rifles. They were just "boom sticks" to them. They pointed and shot. A .45 bullet would literally rattle down the barrel of a .50 rifle. The number of recovered .45 cartridges that were split due to firing them in a larger bore was substantial.
The percentage of recovered Henry cartridges that exhibited multiple firing pin marks indicates that Indians were using dirty guns with fouled chambers or with worn firing pins and it took using the catridges in multiple guns before it finally discharged. Another indication of poor marksmanship.
My point is that looking at the locations of high concentrations of firearm casings particularly Indian locations, and looking at the actual distances, to targets, raises the question, what the hell were they shooting at and how far away was it.
For instance the location outside the eastern fence of the park east of Last Stand Hill is one. What where they shooting at? Certainly not the troops on the west side of the ridge. Refugee survivors of the Keogh rout? Possibly. Maybe Custer led his men over the ridge but as turned back. There are no markers in that area to indicate such a thing happened.
I don't buy that there was a "last stand on the hilltop." Only a fool sits on the skyline, or maybe they just do that in the movies. The markers on the West slope of the hill are exactly where they would be if they occupied the "military slope" of the hill. They were still under fire from at least three directions, but they were not silhouetted like kewpie dolls on the skyline.
I am comparing the various maps published and the marker locations are very very suspect.
If there were five dead before the five companies even reached Calhoun Hill that means there were only 205 men. If you subtract an additional eleven for the cedar posts that don't have markers that brings the total down to 194. Three are nearly 262 markers currently on the field. We know 40 plus are bogus and should have been on Reno field. So as you can see until each marker has been excavated and shown to represent a body, all the 130 years of surmising and theorizing on the battle based on the marker placements as where they died and having a bearing on what took place is very very questionable.
As to the discussion, albeit nearly ten years old on the various cartridge evidence, let me add this.
Scott, Fox et al had the Nebraska Highway Patrol do the forensic analysis of the cartridge cases and bullets. They were able to determine that some were fired in specific weapons and trace the movement of the weapons around the battlefield.
In addition they were able to determine the number of individual weapons used based on the recovered artifacts. Now mind you, at no time were the field studies trying to recover ALL the artifacts. The survey design let them recover an estimated 30% of the artifacts. They tested this estimate by completely covering some smaller selected areas and did in fact recover an additional 60% of artifacts in those areas.
Now knowing that the number of individual weapons identified only represented around 30% of those present, it is possible to give a statistical estimate of the number of say, Henrys and Winchesters present. The number came out to around 400 and change. Now mind you, not all of these were arrayed against George and his five companies. Some were only used on Custer field or Reno field based on the evidence recovered.
I agree that the battle needs a good reassessment based on available evidence. There is a focus on what took place inside the park boundary when there is historical evidence that Custer's battalion suffered casualties in areas around Nye Cartwright ridge and areas to the south. Up to five sets of human remains were reported found AFTER all the burials and markers were placed.
In addition Scott found an additional eleven cedar stakes in various places, like north of Last Stand Hill and north west of Finley Finkel ridge that were never marked with white marble markers. They are in amidst cavalry relic fields and Indian bullets and cartridges. So what happened there and why doesn't anyone address it in their books?
I was a mapping scientist and looking at aerial photos and the tools available on Google Earth, I call into question lot of things based on mere ballistics.
As pointed out in a previous post, only a fool would be shooting at a target 400 yards away with a weapon using a pistol cartridge that was effective out to around 200 yards. The Indians were also using captured .45-55 cartridges in their .50 rifles. It shows to me, that despite what some would have us believe, the Indians knew little to nothing about the the ballistics of rifles. They were just "boom sticks" to them. They pointed and shot. A .45 bullet would literally rattle down the barrel of a .50 rifle. The number of recovered .45 cartridges that were split due to firing them in a larger bore was substantial.
The percentage of recovered Henry cartridges that exhibited multiple firing pin marks indicates that Indians were using dirty guns with fouled chambers or with worn firing pins and it took using the catridges in multiple guns before it finally discharged. Another indication of poor marksmanship.
My point is that looking at the locations of high concentrations of firearm casings particularly Indian locations, and looking at the actual distances, to targets, raises the question, what the hell were they shooting at and how far away was it.
For instance the location outside the eastern fence of the park east of Last Stand Hill is one. What where they shooting at? Certainly not the troops on the west side of the ridge. Refugee survivors of the Keogh rout? Possibly. Maybe Custer led his men over the ridge but as turned back. There are no markers in that area to indicate such a thing happened.
I don't buy that there was a "last stand on the hilltop." Only a fool sits on the skyline, or maybe they just do that in the movies. The markers on the West slope of the hill are exactly where they would be if they occupied the "military slope" of the hill. They were still under fire from at least three directions, but they were not silhouetted like kewpie dolls on the skyline.
I am comparing the various maps published and the marker locations are very very suspect.
If there were five dead before the five companies even reached Calhoun Hill that means there were only 205 men. If you subtract an additional eleven for the cedar posts that don't have markers that brings the total down to 194. Three are nearly 262 markers currently on the field. We know 40 plus are bogus and should have been on Reno field. So as you can see until each marker has been excavated and shown to represent a body, all the 130 years of surmising and theorizing on the battle based on the marker placements as where they died and having a bearing on what took place is very very questionable.