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Post by quincannon on Aug 27, 2014 8:43:39 GMT -6
Fred: You are correct concerning where the majority of Indians in Henryville came from, and I am aware of where both Henryville and F-F Ridge are.
Company L was dismounted and fighting those Indians in Henryville before Company C ever ventured into Calhoun Coulee and were driven to F-F Ridge. In fact Company C probably went down there to address long range shooting from the Greasy Grass area and were surprised by those in Calhoun Coulee.
If the same seven rifles were used from the Greasy Grass-F-F Ridge area and in Henryville, those that used those rifles must have departed from GG-F-F to Henryville before C went down there, therefore they were not present at the "breaking" of Company C.
If that is not the case, and in fact those rifles were used at both the breaking of C and against L from Henryville, the time and sequence is not what it was previously thought to be. There must be some separation of time to account for the movement through space.
The operative words here are break and breaking, and is it possible for the same weapons to be used in two places fairly distant apart at near the same time. I say highly improbable therefore there must be another explanation, and that most probable explanation is that those weapons were used at GG-F-F before C moved there, and those using them most probably moved on to Henryville before C got there and were not engaged in the breaking of C, and were firing the weapons in question from the approximate same location prior to the arrival of C
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 27, 2014 9:05:57 GMT -6
Hang on a minute here chaps, how can these be the same warriors, hundreds may have been moving across the river, and if I was stood on Calhoun looking down on the Henryville position, then wouldn’t FF Ridge be to my right? If this is wrong then please can someone explain; Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 27, 2014 9:21:05 GMT -6
Ian: I have absolutely no problem with the same warriors being in both places. I have a problem with those warriors "breaking" Company C, presumably by fire and close combat AND being in Henryville addressing Company L at the same time.
They were one place or the other at the time C broke, and the fact that cartridges from the same rifles were found in Henryville make it more likely to me they were in Henryville
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Post by fred on Aug 27, 2014 9:46:46 GMT -6
Well maybe the confusion here is with the word, "breaking" or "break." I can add to that, "line."
First of all, I do not believe there was any "line," per se, on Finley-Finckle Ridge. Secondly, unless those troops were a lot closer to Greasy Grass Ridge, the fire from there was completely-- or near completely-- ineffective. And it was not that firing that drove C Company into the coulee; that was a lot more close-in. Perhaps Liddic used a bad choice of words and should have said, "helped break C Company." C Company was broken a earlier and a lot more forcefully by Indians in the coulee and Indians on and arriving on the ridge line than anything emanating from Henryville. To me, the Henryville firing, was merely a shift in direction-- no movement of bodies. Firing from there simply added to the overall mêlée.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 27, 2014 9:48:08 GMT -6
Hello Chuck, another problem is the total of repeaters used by the Indians, some get it as low as 200, now if those 200 were spread out across the whole field and give a total of around 1500-2000 warriors, then they must have been spread pretty thinly, unless we have an elite group who gathered together all the men with repeaters, plus we then have the ammo, as some of these men had just fought an engagement in the valley.
Fred sorry about my graphics my friend, just threw them together aka Conz.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 27, 2014 9:58:53 GMT -6
Fred: If the reference to Henryville was somewhere along the 3200 contour line, behind Henryville, I can buy that with no problem, but that ain't Henryville. The warriors in Henryville were on low ground looking up. Anywhere along the 3200 contour line would simply mean a shifting of fires from Calhoun Hill to F-F Ridge, a much closer distance, therefore more effective.
I don't believe Company C was broken on F-F Ridge either. They were scattered in the coulee and those that went to F-F Ridge were finished there. Any added fire from the 3200 contour line would only speed the process,
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Post by fred on Aug 27, 2014 11:08:54 GMT -6
Fred: If the reference to Henryville was somewhere along the 3200 contour line, behind Henryville, I can buy that with no problem, but that ain't Henryville. The warriors in Henryville were on low ground looking up. Anywhere along the 3200 contour line would simply mean a shifting of fires from Calhoun Hill to F-F Ridge, a much closer distance, therefore more effective. I don't believe Company C was broken on F-F Ridge either. They were scattered in the coulee and those that went to F-F Ridge were finished there. Any added fire from the 3200 contour line would only speed the process, Chuck, I think you have Henryville misplaced. First of all, the Indians there were behind a slight ridge (there are several ridge drop-offs in the Calhoun Hill approaches) and were level to, and as they got closer to Calhoun Hill, actually higher than troops on Finley-Finckle. Anyone silhouetted on the ridge would have come under fire once within range. As for C Company, again, it depends on your definition of the word, "broke." Nine C Company men were killed in Calhoun Coulee; seventeen died on Finley-Finckle Ridge; one was killed off-rez; another died in the swale (either pre- or post-charge, no one really knows for sure); two were identified on or right near LSH; that leaves seven in the Keogh Sector. And that all includes LT Harrington. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 27, 2014 11:26:06 GMT -6
I identify Henryville as the place where a large number of repeating rifle cartridges were found, and it is adequately depicted and marked on the Bonafides Map and others, cartridge finds, thus the name applied. That is my Henryville.
Now if you wish to include the high ground behind that it is not Henryville per-say. If you say that Henryville included the area from the low ground up the hill toward the top of Calhoun Hill, that does not meet the definition of Henryville either. It is the mid slope of Calhoun Hill.
I can only conclude that your definition of Henryville, along with Fox and Scott is a much larger area than mine and Bonafides. I think had Bonafides intended the larger area definition he would have goose-egged the place. He did not.
What all this tells me is that Henryville, as defined on the Bonafides Map is the place where the Indians began to gain fire superiority over Company L, thus pushing L's line to the rear, Indians then following up the slope. Concurrent with this the people from C started to appear out of the coulee and onto F-F Ridge, and some shifting of fires from that mid slope Indian position would be what I would expect to happen.
This is all the normal progression of battle as I see it. Nothing new or surprising. But the fire was not generated from Henryville as defined on the Bonafides Map.
My definition of break or broke, is when a unit loses cohesion. It should be obvious that this did not happen on F-F Ridge, but rather in the coulee. No loss of cohesion in the coulee means that there would not have been anyone on F-F Ridge. Therefore the coulee was the "but for". You adequately demonstrated that loss of cohesion by some here, some there. Had they broken apart on F-F Ridge none would have reached those other places. Therefore in the coulee some went back, some up and to the left, indicating the point of loss of cohesion in the coulee.
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Post by fred on Aug 27, 2014 12:24:15 GMT -6
... Henryville... is adequately depicted and marked on the Bonafides Map... We agree here, but the aerial is deceiving. I measured, then transposed the distances from Bonafede to the contour map and that area is higher than the lower incline of F-F. As you get closer to Calhoun Hill (from Henryville) that height increases-- slightly, but it still increases. So essentially, the Indians at Henryville were on the same level as troops retreating up Finley-Finckle Ridge. I would agree with this with a caveat: L Company men were re-positioning themselves and receiving fire from the east, so fire superiority was a joint action. Here, I agree with you totally. Not sure what you mean here. Yes... I would agree here. Maybe Liddic should have couched his comments a bit differently. And actually, I think-- I think-- I allude to this in the book, and that by the time troops reached Finley-Finckle it was already pretty much a complete breakdown. Dori's map (my daughter) points this out quite graphically. Nice job, Chuck. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 27, 2014 12:34:28 GMT -6
Some may have broke and fled along the area parallel to the river known as the western perimeter, there are 14 markers here and C Company men are the odds on favourites.
Going back to cartridges, on the map I have, I have counted over 24 bullets fired from Army Weapons found in the deep ravine area, so these (if they are genuine) could be from Smiths men shooting at targets coming up the draw, on the other hand they could be fired by Indians with captured weapons, most likely at soldiers fleeing down the draw, but it could easily be a mixture of the two.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Aug 27, 2014 13:10:14 GMT -6
Some may have broke and fled along the area parallel to the river known as the western perimeter, there are 14 markers here and C Company men are the odds on favourites. Ian, Give me the marker numbers. I have done a pretty detailed analysis of these-- including putting a name with each (much, of course, which is complete guesswork)-- but I should be able to tell you (approximate) unit and whether or not the marker is validly placed. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 27, 2014 13:24:06 GMT -6
Hello Fred, the map I have shows a long line stretching from Greasy Grass to Deep Ravine, the line has the numbers;
OM128 OM127 OM126 OM125 OM124 OM253 OM254 OM257
Then there is a single marker to the north of this line;
OM121
We then have a group of markers near deep ravine, but these maybe too far to be C Company men;
OM6 OM5 OM4 OM3 OM2
The map shows the various points that some sort of artifact was found, but it also lacks in reference points, as it is virtually just a blank sheet with letters and numbers written over it.
Ian.
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Post by Mulligan on Aug 27, 2014 13:29:08 GMT -6
Fred,
Thanks, again, for straightforward information. I'm sending a direct inquiry to the Western Archaeology and Conservation Center in Tucson, AZ. Also, I'll be following up my line of questioning with the White Swan Library on site at the battlefield. If anything interesting comes up I'll keep everyone posted.
If Scott and Fox have indeed addressed the NC cartridge collections analysis issues is their discussion available somewhere online or in print form?
~~~
And I am thrilled to be considered part of any Austrian coffee house debate regarding the Good vs. Evil aspects of the Custer fight. It feels more Swedish to me, however, a la Ingmar Bergman's film "The Seventh Seal". The deep mystery surrounding Custer's last hour -- which is what drives this board, I presume -- might be the "Silence of God" referenced in the film's title, a passage from the Book of Revelations.
Gentleman, in our armchair military analyses (two centuries removed) are we not playing chess with the Devil? The winner of the match will have History's final say.
Mulligan
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Post by quincannon on Aug 27, 2014 13:41:15 GMT -6
Fred: That fire from the east on Company L has always troubled me. There is no indication that Calhoun refused his left flank as far as I know. Don't think there is any doubt the fire was coming in on him, it is just when it started that I am unsure about. I suspect it was a function of him moving back up the hill, and in so doing becoming somewhat contracted, allowing leakers from Henryville to work their way around him. That in itself would be fatal, Company C foray or not. Fighting a company sized battle with a less than half strength company does have a few minor pitfalls, does it not?
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Post by fred on Aug 27, 2014 13:56:16 GMT -6
That fire from the east on Company L has always troubled me. There is no indication that Calhoun refused his left flank as far as I know. No, I think you are correct here, but I also think initially any firing coming from east of the hill-- actually, northeast of the hilltop-- would have light and sporadic. The primary emphasis at the beginning was from Henryville and below. And there is some artifactual evidence to support that. The quantum shift in L was generated by C. So you are right on the money here. As more and more Indians moved up Deep Coulee, the firing from the east increased, but by then there was a different target and different circumstances.
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