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Post by fred on Aug 26, 2014 18:58:28 GMT -6
Mulligan,
This may help you somewhat...
1920s—Joe Blummer found Springfield cartridge cases. In a 1928 letter, Blummer wrote, “I found 17 shells on the east side of this small ridge… strung out for about 150 yards and all on the east side of the ridge about 10 feet from the top. This ridge is about three-fourths of a mile southeast of the southeast corner of (the) battlefield fence” [Trinque, “Elusive Ridge,” Research Review, p. 3].
1938—COL Elwood L. Nye and R. G. Cartwright checked the same site and discovered many more cases. These locations are on Blummer/Nye-Cartwright Ridge.
Through an analysis of the letters Superintendent Edward S. Luce wrote describing the artifacts he and others found, Bruce Trinque concluded that Richard Fox’ “West Ridge” is the real Luce Ridge and it is this area—north to Nye-Cartwright—that the troops traversed. More than 100 cases were found by Luce, generally three to four yards apart, indicating dismounted skirmishers. As the trail of cases continued, the spacing changed to about nine yards indicating mounted skirmishing.
Jerome Greene claimed 214 empty carbine cases were found on or near Nye-Cartwright Ridge [Smalley, More Little Bighorn Mysteries, FN 29, p. 16 – 14; Greene, Evidence and the Custer Enigma, p. 45].
(A) Along the front side of Butler Ridge which faces the LBH, were found: [Richard Fox claims this is where Custer himself and Yates watched the action at Ford B. Gregory Michno feels Custer remained with Keogh’s battalion on East Ridge, then Luce, then Nye-Cartwright. My own personal feelings are that Fox is correct and Michno is wrong.]
• Ten .45/55-caliber bullets • Four .45/55 cases • Two unfired .45/55 cartridges • Two Colt .45 bullets • One .50/70 cartridge • Three .44 Henry cases • Three .50 Spencer cases • Four brass cavalry insignia • One arrowhead • Two half horseshoes • One metal ring • Brass grommets • Iron snaps • One Winchester rifle
(B) In the north fork of MTC, below and along the south and southeast face of Luce Ridge—traditional Luce Ridge is East Ridge—roughly parallel to East Ridge: • Four .45/55 cases • Three .50/70 cases • Fourteen .45/55 cases, plus an additional undetermined number • At least three horse skeletons, plus additional horse bones • At least three human skeletons, plus additional human bones • A saddle and bridle, saddle leather and pommel rings, and horseshoes • Much of this was probably from the battle with the southern half of Wolf Tooth’s band.
(C) In the lower ground, north and northwest of Butler Ridge, east of Deep Coulee: • Two .45/55 cartridges • A horseshoe, harness buckle, and straps • A leather boot • A leather scabbard • An arrowhead • Two human skeletons • Numerous horse bones
(D) On the southern slope of Nye-Cartwright Ridge, directly behind the LBH face of Butler Ridge: • Four .45/55 cases • Four .45/55 cartridges • Six .56 Spencer cases • Twenty-four .50/70 cases • Fifteen .44 Henry cases • Nine .44 Henry cartridges • An Indian bridle
(E) All along the Nye-Cartwright/Luce Ridge complex. This is now behind all of the previous (Letters), including (B): • Upwards of 480 .45/55 cases and cartridges • Several .50/70 cases • An undetermined number of additional shells • Saddle and tack parts • Uniform buttons and buckles
(F) Behind Nye-Cartwright along a dry ravine of South Branch: • Three .44 Henry cases • This was probably from the skirmish with the northern half of Wolf Tooth’s band.
(G) Below the western edge of Nye-Cartwright, in what appear to be a series of gullies or ravines leading to, but before, Deep Coulee: • Three human and three horse skeletons • Various bridle and saddle parts
(H) Northern part of Deep Coulee on its west side, toward Calhoun Hill and the Henryville area: • Human bones and two horse skeletons • Eight .45/55 cases • Two .50/70 cases • Two .50- and one .56-caliber Spencer cases • One .32 rimfire case • Two .44 Henry cases • One Winchester rifle
From Michno, Lakota Noon, map on p. 226— (A) Henryville, on the Deep Coulee side: 32 Indian cartridge cases. (B) Henryville, on the Calhoun Hill side: 13 Indian cartridge cases. (C) Across Calhoun Hill, roughly from west to east: nine Indian cartridge cases. (D) All along the ridges and gullies east of Battle Ridge and the Keogh Sector: 108 Indian cartridges, including .50/70’s, .44’s, and .56’s. (E) Along the south side of Finley Ridge: nine Indian bullets. (F) Across Calhoun Hill, roughly north to south: 5 Army cartridge cases.
“Shell cases have been found for nearly a quarter mile along the crest [of Blummer-(Nye) Cartwright Ridge]. Hank Wiebert [sic] reported he found a number of shell cases along the crest of Blummer (Nye)-Cartwright Ridge. However, Joseph Blummer wrote to Robert Cartwright in a 1928 letter that he found a number of shells along the northern slope of this ridge about 10 feet from the crest” [Liddic, Vanishing Victory, p. 116].
Michno, The Mystery of E Troop, pp. 51 – 52. He breaks the 1984 – 1985 archeological finds into 12 main areas. Furthermore, “All areas had a mix of both Indian and army relics, while some had a predominance of one type over another to mark it as either a soldier or Indian position.”
1. Greasy Grass Ridge, particularly in the southern portion (173 artifacts); northern portion (32 artifacts): Indian positions.
2. Henryville (114): Indian.
3. Today’s cemetery (53): Indian.
4. The “bend” of Deep Ravine (34): Indian.
5. North of Custer Hill (45): Indian.
6. Soldier positions were strongest at Custer Hill (80) and to a lesser extent at Calhoun Hill (63).
7. Mixed areas were in Calhoun Coulee (43), Finley Ridge (23), the Keogh Sector (86), and the South Skirmish Line (169). The latter two areas show considerable mixed activity.
The archeological survey conducted by Fox and Scott in 1984 found that at least seven “of the Indian weapons which were used to break the soldier’s line on Finley Hill were also fired against Calhoun’s position from Henryville Ridge, southeast of this hill” [Liddic, Vanishing Victory, p. 151]. Liddic correctly suggests the reason for this was because at 700 yards away on Greasy Grass Ridge, the Indians’ fire was not effective against troops on Calhoun Hill, but at the shorter distance of about 350 yards from Henryville, the Henrys and Winchesters were lethal.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 26, 2014 20:40:35 GMT -6
Done, but for the record: Fred, could you copy and repost this on an appropriate thread and maybe delete it here? It's valuable and nobody would look here. When you do, I'll copy this and repost it there. 1. Haven't I been yelled at enough about the case terms? They are ALWAYS .45/70 cases by cartridge size, but some are .45/55 by volume of powder. Let's stick to that if possible. 2. The three skeletons....are they available to be dna'd? If soldier or native American would be nice to know. Indians sometimes buried their own in gullies along with their favorite pony, I've read, and these might predate battle or even after. 3, Michno said “All areas had a mix of both Indian and army relics, while some had a predominance of one type over another to mark it as either a soldier or Indian position.” No, it is simply not possible to discern a soldier position from a place where Indians shed soldier relics of the battle. It's those comforting and sweeping assurances from authority that are so often wrong. Recall, after reading all this, how WO recently assured us nobody in uniform would go to Nye-Cartwright or Luce Ridges, yet the ground around both is wet with artifacts of the cavalry. He wasn't aware, he made a sweeping assertion based on his experience, and it is wrong. Or, at least, there's a lot to suggest he's wrong. But he's an officer and his opinion will affect the unschooled. 4. It is foolish to conclude that all groupings of artifacts not immediately indicative of soldier carbine or pistol work is ipso facto "Indian." Again: salting, vengeful wanderers passing by, mothers telling kids to drop the disgusting handful of cases - "you have enough!" - and rushing to catch the train. Also again, Indians fired carbines and pistols as well. 5. These breezy assurances don't seem to include artifacts from an event we know happened: Indians riding around firing into the dead or into the air celebration with captured weapons, and this from battle end to their southern jaunt on the 26th. We know it happened yet somehow it left no detritus, as all found cases and artifacts are applied to positions or actions in a 1 to 2 hour period on the previous day. Read more: lbha.proboards.com/posts/recent#ixzz3BYYNFUOB
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Post by Mulligan on Aug 27, 2014 1:05:48 GMT -6
Wow, Fred! Wow, Everybody!
Thanks to everyone for the warm, quick welcome and tons of valuable information!! I hope Dark Cloud can direct my questions (and members' answers) to appropriate sites on the board for awhile until I get a sense of where to post my inquiries and thoughts.
Yes, the LBH artifact list and cartridge count is voluminous. I'll certainly have future questions regarding relics from the ongoing "archaeology" at Ford D (?) and other northerly positions along the LBH that Custer may have advanced to while he was in "offensive" combat mode.
Fred, my question about the Nye-Cartwright cartridges is more along the line of "Where are they now, exactly?" (specific locations for various collections, 2014), and "Have these cartridges ever been subjected to laboratory analysis, side by side, against the battlefield cartridges that Fox investigated in his forensic study?" My latter question would be looking for a definite "Yes" or "No".
Obviously, it would be critical to understanding the battle sequence if any of the NC cartridges -- found by any of the men previously mentioned -- matched up with any of the weapons and cartridges that appear in the Fox analysis. I think that if this type of forensic comparison hasn't occurred, or a serious, documented attempt hasn't been made to perform one, it probably indicates that the NC cartridges are unrelated to the battle and the science guys (and project-funding guys) at NPS know this for a fact.
To anyone's knowledge has Douglas Scott or Richard Fox ever spoken to this NC question?
~~~
And, Fred, even if you can't swallow the late Henry Weibert's theories don't be so hasty in dismissing him as a source of enlightenment. You should really read Sixty-Six Years Under Custer's Shadow. I bought a lightly used, signed copy from an online seller recently for less than twenty bucks.
The book's introduction clearly states that it is written in a non-literal way, perhaps more as a stylized impression of how events may have played out. I believe Weibert's unusual "Bouyer kills Custer" scenario is actually intended as a creative metaphor. Weibert may be subtly leading us to consider that Custer had many enemies within his own ranks, and not necessarily just those in uniform on the battlefield. In his oblique way, perhaps Weibert is suggesting we look beyond the unexpectedly well-armed Indian warriors for the true answer as to who was the ultimate author of Custer's fatal appointment along the LBH.
Furthermore, it is not insignificant that as an experienced local rancher Weibert brings to this discussion an authentic voice regarding the visceral issues of horsemanship and LBH terrain. And because he lived on the Crow Agency for decades his insights into Native American thinking and cultural expression are invaluable tools for understanding the later Indian testimony about the battle -- IMHO, of course.
So, OK, back to my original question: If I want to hold Blummer's, or Weibert's, or Supt. Luce's Nye-Cartwright cartridge cases in my hand where can I find them today?
In the meantime cue the regimental band, please. While we wait for answers I think the General would like some light entertainment.
Mulligan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 27, 2014 2:48:26 GMT -6
Is this the right thread for this answer?
Hi Mulligan and welcome aboard.
I recall TV show called “Battlefield Detectives” featuring both Richard Fox and Doug Scott, one of them actually had a US Army Carbine that was fired at the battle, and not only that they found the cases from the carbine, the program showed just how much work these two (and their team of course) did and the results they found, but as others have said, just because you find a .45-70 case doesn’t mean it was fired from that spot.
But what if we turned our intentions to the locations of bullets, if these are buried into the ground then these have not been tampered with, if you could rule out the places were the ground was disturbed and land fill was dumped (due to the roads and paths), then only use the data from the bullets that were commonly used and valid from 1876, would this give us a more accurate picture to as and were the firing was conducted and received?
Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 27, 2014 6:14:21 GMT -6
At a recent event with Fox and Donahue on the battlefield they presented pictures of the construction of the current entrance. The materials were removed from the area of the ford D's and moved to construct the road. This particular fording area would require moving across the information, cemetery, and administrative location to be visible. There is a line on Benteen's hand drawn map indicating a trail to the area. In the picture was Kellogg's marker in its original location. The picture was taken from the new road at the dedication with the focus being the girls scouts marching up the road. Donahue theorized the photo may have been taken from the top of a school bus because of the angle of the photo and quite possibly the transportation for the girl scouts.
There were two more markers down by the trading post/ restaurant. I recommend the Indian taco but agree with Chuck in regards to the hamburger.
So back to the artifacts at the Ford D's . Where is there a current investigation at the Ds ?
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 27, 2014 6:20:56 GMT -6
Is this the right thread for this answer? Hi Mulligan and welcome aboard. I recall TV show called “Battlefield Detectives” featuring both Richard Fox and Doug Scott, one of them actually had a US Army Carbine that was fired at the battle, and not only that they found the cases from the carbine, the program showed just how much work these two (and their team of course) did and the results they found, but as others have said, just because you find a .45-70 case doesn’t mean it was fired from that spot. But what if we turned our intentions to the locations of bullets, if these are buried into the ground then these have not been tampered with, if you could rule out the places were the ground was disturbed and land fill was dumped (due to the roads and paths), then only use the data from the bullets that were commonly used and valid from 1876, would this give us a more accurate picture to as and were the firing was conducted and received? Ian. I would think the bullets are less likely to have been removed but harder to determine what type of case they were fired from. Maybe they changed bullets when they switched from the copper guilded cases but I don't know that. We do know that .45-70s were fired there after the battle. I would think they would want a safe back stop and that would be the ground to their front. Also we know the Indians fired into the ground at the bodies. Regards Steve
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 27, 2014 6:35:03 GMT -6
Steve the latest that I can find by Doug Scott is this dated 2010, but you probably would have seen this before; linkHere are two big hitters going toe to toe (nothing really to do with finds, but worth a look); linkIan.
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Post by fred on Aug 27, 2014 7:11:47 GMT -6
At a recent event with Fox and Donahue on the battlefield they presented pictures of the construction of the current entrance. The materials were removed from the area of the ford D's and moved to construct the road. This particular fording area would require moving across the information, cemetery, and administrative location to be visible. There is a line on Benteen's hand drawn map indicating a trail to the area. In the picture was Kellogg's marker in its original location. The picture was taken from the new road at the dedication with the focus being the girls scouts marching up the road.... There were two more markers down by the trading post/ restaurant. I recommend the Indian taco but agree with Chuck in regards to the hamburger. So back to the artifacts at the Ford D's . Where is there a current investigation at the Ds ? Steve,I put no stock whatsoever in any markers by the general store. First of all, the markers were placed in 1896, fourteen years after the battle, so who knows what the heck anyone found there, especially after all the other "burial" details in 1876, 1877, 1879, 1881, 1888, and 1889. That place was more trod upon than a Parisian bordello. I do accept the Kellogg placement ( it's in my book, after all!, thank you, Professor Donohue), however; there is plenty of evidence for that being the area he was killed... including some logic. Mulligan,A couple of things you should know about these boards... and it is better you learn them now than wait to get pilloried. Steve is the most experienced and probably the most level-headed member here. He goes by the moniker, "AZ Ranger." Dark Cloud (DC) is by far and away the most brilliant member, as well as one of the most cantankerous. He questions everything and he and I do not agree on a whole lot once Custer got past Medicine Tail Coulee. Despite these myriad faults, DC is the most generous and decent individual you will ever run into. He and I have had our share of dust-ups, but I will always consider him the best friend I have ever had who I have never met. Now... watch your ass. And I will answer your long post in full detail in a little while. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 27, 2014 7:26:20 GMT -6
Fred: Your last paragraph above regarding Finley-Henryville-Liddic-Fox/Scott-seven rifles makes no sense to me. People who broke Company C on Finley, have no business being at Henryville. It is out of sequence. I can see several weapons placing long range and thus ineffective fire into Calhoun Hill from Greasy Grass, then working their way around to Henryville. That makes sense. What I can't see is those folks with those rifles "breaking" Company C and then working their way to Henryville to work over Company L. No time I think. If there was sufficient time that would mitigate against an immediate and sequential breakdown of C stumbling back into L and unhinging the position.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 27, 2014 7:40:01 GMT -6
Chuck, now you have fired a number of small arms in your time, now if I gave you a Winchester or a Henry, both equipped with iron sights (notch & V), now how would you fare at firing these weapons over a distance of between 200-300 yards, now if you place these weapons to someone who had no real training, could he easily drop a man at this distance? Don’t forget that this is a battle, and your heart would be pumping and your lungs heavy, so I would guess that a warrior would have to get closer to knock his target down, but alas I have never fired either weapon, so what do you think.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 27, 2014 7:59:44 GMT -6
Ian: When I shot a rifle at two or three hundred meters I hit what I aimed at more time than not. Having said that I can't recall ever using a weapon of the same vintage, except a Rev War vintage musket, with which I could not hit the broad side of a barn.
Firing on Calhoun from Greasy Grass to me is a sign of no training and a waste of ammunition in the hands of people whose only wish is to make noise.
My question deals with the word "break" in Fred's paragraph. It is not his word, only a repetition of Fox/Scott. The people that "broke" Company C on Finley had no time to get to Henryville and work over Company L. Their natural instincts would be to pursue C. So what I am saying is that IF these rifles were used in breaking C, then the whole collapse of position sequentially C going down, followed by L changing front to cover and address, and in the process themselves breaking, must be looked at again, for if it happened that way, C breaking would not cause the collapse of L
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Post by fred on Aug 27, 2014 8:02:00 GMT -6
Fred, my question about the Nye-Cartwright cartridges is more along the line of "Where are they now, exactly?" (specific locations for various collections, 2014), and "Have these cartridges ever been subjected to laboratory analysis, side by side, against the battlefield cartridges that Fox investigated in his forensic study?" My latter question would be looking for a definite "Yes" or "No". As far as I know—and AZ will know better—all the artifacts are currently—and temporarily—in Arizona, moved there because of renovations or the building of new facilities at the LBH. I pay little attention to these “current events” details. And yes, there has been analysis of the cartridges, in all likelihood, side-by-side, as well. Do not take that as a definitive statement, however. I am basing it more on an assumption stemming from, “well, boys, you have all this data… and that’s what you do for a living… and it has been years….” The Luce and Nye cartridges are battle-related. The lack of head-stamps place them as “period” pieces and there are several contemporary accounts supporting such firing. Yes, they have. I do not dismiss any of the locals, at least those who have done some work there like Weibert, Connor, and Pitsch. The ones I dismiss are the ones who have all the answers and know everything about all there is to know. We had one here one time, a clown who called himself “rosebud.” He had more opinions based on fewer facts than anyone I have ever met. The worst part about it was, personally, he was a nice guy. Oh, well! So much for brief friendships! Mulligan, I appreciate your attempt at placing this in the realm of aesthetics and a fin-de-siècle Austrian coffeehouse debate of good versus evil, but this is straight history, military history at that, and Weibert, while trying to convey a message, did himself a disservice by postulating cockamamie theories. Such fantasy throws his efforts into question and relegates his book to the “other” pile. I would prefer to dwell on the cartridge issue: what, where found, conclusions, than another theory leading nowhere. No question about it. Do not, however, forget that by the time Weibert got his act together, that land had been trod upon, farmed, fenced, celebrated, gated, marked, pecked-over, salted, eroded, built on, dug out, quarried, trashed, and on and on. For example, Deep Ravine—where Boyer supposedly offed ol’ George—is probably 50 to 100 yards shorter today than it was in 1876. Whether you know it or not, that changes the entire aspect of the Custer fighting and military decisions surrounding it. Also, horsemanship is a relative thing and we—and this includes Weibert—have no earthly clue how good—or bad, if you prefer—the Indians were as riders and horseman, nor do any of us have any idea of how the troops performed as horsemen. There are so many intangibles and variables you must throw into the mix, that today we can only guesstimate these speeds: type of horses, training, weight, equipment, stamina, speed, fodder, experience, age…. I go by accounts… and their corroboration, within reasonable expectations and assumptions. If it is possible, it is within play, regardless of what the local geniuses have to say. They weren’t there. Arizona. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 27, 2014 8:12:50 GMT -6
To be honest, I always thought that L Company could have been fully committed to engaging targets around the area known as Henryville, and the Indians that did battle with C Company were in fact a different bunch, plus if C was chased up towards L, then L had to wheel to its right to provide cover, and if this happened then this would give attackers a window to encroach Calhoun from Henryville, so the whole position could of been hit from two sides.
(I better be careful that I don't take this thread of topic, you know its usually me who gets the stick)
Ian.
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Post by fred on Aug 27, 2014 8:19:24 GMT -6
Fred: Your last paragraph above regarding Finley-Henryville-Liddic-Fox/Scott-seven rifles makes no sense to me. People who broke Company C on Finley, have no business being at Henryville. It is out of sequence. I can see several weapons placing long range and thus ineffective fire into Calhoun Hill from Greasy Grass, then working their way around to Henryville. That makes sense. What I can't see is those folks with those rifles "breaking" Company C and then working their way to Henryville to work over Company L. No time I think. If there was sufficient time that would mitigate against an immediate and sequential breakdown of C stumbling beck into L and unhinging the position. Chuck, OK... here is what I wrote... The archeological survey conducted by Fox and Scott in 1984 found that at least seven “of the Indian weapons which were used to break the soldier’s line on Finley Hill were also fired against Calhoun’s position from Henryville Ridge, southeast of this hill” [Liddic, Vanishing Victory, p. 151]. Liddic correctly suggests the reason for this was because at 700 yards away on Greasy Grass Ridge, the Indians’ fire was not effective against troops on Calhoun Hill, but at the shorter distance of about 350 yards from Henryville, the Henrys and Winchesters were lethal. First of all, Henryville is to the south and west of Calhoun Hill; south of the more northern end of Finley-Finckle. Indians at Henryville in all likelihood came up from Ford B, trailing Custer-Yates. They stayed there as Custer-Yates re-united with Keogh on Calhoun Hill. As C Company broke up in Calhoun Coulee and its remnants fled to Finley-Finckle, Indians firing-- passively?-- at Calhoun Hill, turned their weapons on Finley-Finckle. If you look at the markers along that ridge line, you will see most of them, if not directly on top of the ridge, are on its north side (all but one, I believe), leading me to believe Liddic's comment about "lethal" was spot-on correct. I see nothing out of sequence here. Indians moving across the ford went up Deep Coulee, the Deep Coulee flats (to Henryville), into Calhoun Coulee (from both fords), and onto Greasy Grass Ridge. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 27, 2014 8:31:10 GMT -6
No, it is completely on topic. It is inconceivable to me that the same weapons used by those who "broke" Company C would also be used by people addressing Company L from Henryville. If they were then the entire scenario of a sequence and near immediate breakdown of first C closely followed by L breaking does not hold water, within the timeframe heretofore proposed.
I do not doubt the science. What I doubt is the conclusion of "used to break C"
There were two different groups. That does not preclude some from one joining the other. What it precludes is those that "broke" C from joining the folks in Henryville. Therefore I can only conclude that those weapons were used in the Finley vicinity before C moved down there and were subsequently broken.
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