alanw
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by alanw on Feb 18, 2014 13:27:27 GMT -6
DC, I know what you mean, but in lieu of anything else-- and there is nothing else-- this isn't bad stuff. You or I could do the narration and we would have 50% of the Custer-speaking public up in arms about our opinions, as well. If nothing else, his videos show the terrain and the general concept of who, what, and where. I agree the videos are well shot and whatever one's views on the narration, are the best I have seen. They are especially useful for those who have not seen the area first-hand, and only have what they have read and photographic evidence to form their opinion/understanding of the battle. When I visited LBH in 2004, I thought I knew quite a bit about the battle, but having seen it first-hand, the sheer scale, distances involved and terrain, left me scratching my head and I left with more questions than answers. My main criticism of the narration was the omission of any mention of 'Wooden Leg Hill', on the 'other side' of Last Stand Hill, and that part of the battle - almost as if the narrator had run out of film.
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Post by fred on Feb 18, 2014 13:36:45 GMT -6
... but having seen it first-hand, the sheer scale, distances involved and terrain, left me scratching my head and I left with more questions than answers. Alan, It is amazing, isn't it? I was there for the first time in 1992, then again in 2006, 2007, 2009, and 2013. With luck, I will be there in June 2015. The scale is incredible and that was what struck me the most, especially when you con side the size of the Seventh Cavalry. Then, if you go to Busby, up davis Creek and down Reno Creek, adding all that into it, it truly boggled my mind. Nice job, Alan. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 18, 2014 13:37:15 GMT -6
DC has caused me to rethink, or delve into deeper more things than I can remember. The elevation of Weir Point is the latest. Every board, every researcher, needs a DC to keep them honest, or else we fall into the all too human tendency to get sloppy, and fail to think the problem through. We may come out with the same answer, after it's put to the DC test, but the answer means much more in that it has been through the fire.
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Post by fred on Feb 18, 2014 13:50:35 GMT -6
I'd like to know if Varnum's Lookout is visible in any.... I think it might be... not sure... Okay, young lady... you asked for it.... Here is my opinion of the so-called "Varnum's Lookout." First of all, the first time the phrase was used in reference to where it is, was by Vern Smalley. Vern tried to convince me and the Montana Historical Society, that Varnum went there and not to the Crow's Nest. I didn't buy it. What I did figure, however, was a second trip by GAC, and not to the Crow's Nest, but to "Varnum's Lookout"... on the divide. Remember, Custer did not believe the village was where Boyer, the Crows, and Varnum said it was: he could not see it from the Crow's Nest. It seems this upset several people and someone-- Reynolds and Boyer probably-- convinced Custer to take a second look. This is when he borrowed DeRudio's Austrian-made field glasses, but instead of climbing back up to the Crow's Nest hill, he rode to the divide, just to the right or semi-north of where the command crossed a short time later. These two pictures were taken exactly on top of where Custer stood and the misnomer, "Varnum's Lookout," has been attached to the location. Varnum was never there! There are probably fewer than a dozen people who would even know what you are talking about were you to say, "Varnum's Lookout." They would probably tell you it was someplace on the Crow's Nest hill. Now, there is always the possibility it never happened that way, but LT Hare said Custer made a second trip to view the valleys beyond, though he never said where. DeRudio also claimed as much, especially in light of the fact he lent Custer those field glasses. And while Varnum was absolutely positive Custer never made a second trip to the Crow's Nest, he never said anything about a trip to the divide. The first picture shows the area to the left or a southern-more direction, and if you look closely you will be able to see the trail coming off the top of the divide. The second picture is a straight-on shot of Reno Creek valley and the LBH valley in the far distance. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 18, 2014 13:57:27 GMT -6
I think that to take the distances involved into context, you must visit the place, I look at a map and see Ford B, and then I locate Calhoun hill and the fact that the distance between the two features is over a mile and from Calhoun hill to LSH is nearly two thirds of a mile, now to truly take this all in you must have be there.
Ian.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 18, 2014 14:35:05 GMT -6
I think that to take the distances involved into context, you must visit the place, I look at a map and see Ford B, and then I locate Calhoun hill and the fact that the distance between the two features is over a mile and from Calhoun hill to LSH is nearly two thirds of a mile, now to truly take this all in you must have be there. Ian. Ian, buy a ticket to Dulles, I will give you a ride out. I will be stopping in Oklahoma, New Mexico and a Montana prairie dog hunt first then to the battlefield. I can then turn you over to the AZ Ranger for a proper tour.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Margaret on Feb 18, 2014 14:41:17 GMT -6
thank you Fred..... I understood much of what you say from earlier discussions here, including Mr Smalley's writings... it's not as high as I thought it would be... presumably he got to see what he wanted with those glasses...from this point... I did wonder if it was in the background to the photo you posted, the one with you in it... which incidentally reminded me of Gary Cooper in High Noon... hand on hip ready to draw...lol... very nice though, you've obviously taken care of yourself..
I also like Mike Powell's photo very much... the parched ground appeals to me.. and I am able to zoom in for close ups... there is even a cow in shot which gives me an idea of how horses would look, sauntering down that valley...
..do take care and keep up the good work.... I think you have kept your cool so far...[re.. other board..]
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 18, 2014 14:54:10 GMT -6
Just want to point out some things. Fred zeroes in on how the name "Varnum's Lookout" appeared and found purchase and exists in the minds of some as something Fred doesn't buy at all, Varnum never being there, but might be the place Custer peered from under certain circumstances. How easily a glib title to a geographic place adds oomph to scenarios without much trying.
Recently I noticed that the theory Martini never met Boston - who I think and accounts support was there before Martini left Custer - had shown signs of purchase, but of course I favor it. Still, I pointed it out as a phenomenon of Custerland, whether true or not.
The thing is, once 3411 was sanely and probably correctly inserted as the prominence from which much stuff formerly assumed to be on Weir occurred, because Weir was now thought lower and the view north better from 3411, near ALL this activity was pulled down to 3411. I don't think that flies, and I point again to Martin's testimony where Custer with his brotherS and nephew were ON the hill in question, but he later says were not at the top, and this confused Gray and others as a contradiction. That description makes more sense at Weir than 3411. If true at all.
The thing that I fight is the assumption that the 'best we have' in the way of evidence is good enough. I don't think it is, and I think the examples just given suggest how malleable and unstable the use of such ether is.
Regarding the videos, I agree they may give the newbies a sense of the land, but I think they only make sense to those familiar with two dimensional maps and fairly well up on the story and theories. But many of the actions titled with Keogh's or Calhoun's or Custer's names are no more solid than Varnum's Lookout.
I ask again, since that nifty shot by Treasure Dude puts us in mind of space and the vastness of the field. Does it really make sense to divide five companies and prance that distance in full view of the village to a notional Ford D regardless of intent? In such a small number action, does holding 40 or 60 percent of your available in reserve or 'till later' like a candy bar over a mile away make sense whatever? Look at that field.
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Post by fred on Feb 18, 2014 15:16:13 GMT -6
..do take care and keep up the good work.... I think you have kept your cool so far...[re.. other board..] Margaret, you are a dream-boat. What a lovely lady you are!! My sincerest thanks. Very best wishes, Fred.
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alanw
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by alanw on Feb 18, 2014 16:52:04 GMT -6
I think that to take the distances involved into context, you must visit the place, I look at a map and see Ford B, and then I locate Calhoun hill and the fact that the distance between the two features is over a mile and from Calhoun hill to LSH is nearly two thirds of a mile, now to truly take this all in you must have be there. Ian. Excellent example Ian! I remember looking back towards LSH from Calhoun Hill and thinking it was much further than I previously imagined from simply reading about the battle. I tried to imagine what it would have been like to try and run from Calhoun Hill to LSH, fruitless as we now know, and how far a trooper might have got before being cut down. That one measurement was the first thing about the geography of the battlefied that made me begin to re-evaluate my understanding of the battle.
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Post by Mike Powell on Feb 18, 2014 16:53:56 GMT -6
For a general sense of the view from the divide this image indicates by name the USGS 7.5 Minute Series maps that cover the approach route and the battlefield. Elevation in feet of major features are shown. The view which the map represents is shown below, marked for the prominent mid-distance elevation points A and B. The tic marks are black for the pony herd area, red for MTC Ford and blue for LSH, the latter two of course being blocked from view by the terrain. The photo was taken in July 2006 and I believe I did not zoom the camera.
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Post by Margaret on Feb 19, 2014 4:27:04 GMT -6
...thank you Mike.. that map very useful there, to gauge distances...isn't that ridge to the left so rough looking and humpy bumpy.... I can zoom in for a closer look too...
...I think this region was the scene of a battle in 1874 between miners and the Sioux... Herendeen was involved... it was near the divide as I recall...
...from that gorgeous view, I am also reminded of Bing Crosby's 'Don't Fence Me In'...
Oh, give me land, lots of land under starry skies above, Don't fence me in. Let me ride through the wide open country that I love, Don't fence me in. Let me be by myself in the evenin' breeze, And listen to the murmur of the cottonwood trees, Send me off forever but I ask you please, Don't fence me in.
Just turn me loose, let me straddle my old saddle Underneath the western skies. On my Cayuse, let me wander over yonder Till I see the mountains rise.
I want to ride to the ridge where the west commences And gaze at the moon till I lose my senses And I can't look at hovels and I can't stand fences Don't fence me in
....I might look at that from both sides of the argument really...
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 19, 2014 5:31:56 GMT -6
Here is an image of the Robert Marshall Map from 1908, it is interesting in a way because it shows the areas where he thinks the various Companies fell, for example it mentions Lt. James Calhoun’s Command (L Company) but both Calhoun and Crittenden are placed further up hill, funny enough it also places Capt. TW Custer’s Command (C Company) over near the area usually named “The South Skirmish Line”. linkThanks for the offer Tom that sounds like a great journey, is that Dulles Virginia or Dulles Airport? Either way gotta fix the roof before we can sort out any trips, but thanks for the offer and it was a kind gesture. Good stuff Mike, boy those scouts had good eyes. Margaret, Bing wanted to live a duel life, or so he said in Buttons and Bows; East is east and west is west And the wrong one I have chose Let's go where they keep on wearin' Those frills and flowers and buttons and bows Rings and things and buttons and bows.
Don't bury me in this prairie Take me where the cement grows Let's move down to some big town Where they love a gal by the cut o' her clothes And you'll stand out, in buttons and bows. Ian.
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Post by Margaret on Feb 19, 2014 6:08:07 GMT -6
...thank you Ian...that's put a damper on my little romantic notion I had going..lol... but I might add that Crosby recorded my song much earlier than yours...so yeah, I suppose you could say he had a change of heart.. but at least the Cole Porter lyrics on 'Don't Fence Me In'... were based from an original text by a Montanan poet... ...so there...we're quits..
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 19, 2014 6:50:52 GMT -6
On the contrary Margaret, you keep those thoughts in mind and take no notice of me, we Brits need cheering up after the weather we have endured, I wish I was walking down the valley in Mike’s photograph right now! Minus the rattle snakes of course.
Hello Alan, if the Keogh position broke and men presumably started to stream (as in the line of markers) to LSH, would this mean that Custer was already there? I have always wondered, why did they go in that direction, was it because the Indians had not cut that route off yet or did they see the Regimental Commander and his Colours flying.
Ian.
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