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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 16, 2014 13:24:56 GMT -6
This is a very interesting thread and well done to everyone, plenty of good posts, now I don’t have any maps that can compete with Fred’s and I haven’t visited the battlefield, which leaves me at a disadvantage when trying to discuss the area, but someone mentioned a view from Weir Point, so I have found this, I Hope it helps. It’s by a guy called Treasure Dude and we have a member of that name, so if it is him I hope he doesn’t mind me posting this. linkNow Custer may have gone to the crow’s nest to try and get his first view of the village, and his Regiment were not in battle formation, but having seen the village (or part of it from 3411) what would he learn from going off trail and leaving his men in what was a combat zone and go to WP, that’s what he had scouts for and Custer (in my view) would be in a hurry, so off trail excursions don’t seem likely to me. Maybe the F Company Detail went there? Ian.
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Post by fred on Feb 16, 2014 14:10:41 GMT -6
It’s by a guy called Treasure Dude and we have a member of that name, so if it is him I hope he doesn’t mind me posting this. Ian, That is me waving the guidon. " Treasuredude" is one of my best friends, and this was taken in June 2007. We were waving the guidon to see if our other friends-- on Calhoun Hill-- could see us clearly. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 16, 2014 14:32:52 GMT -6
I can't argue, but I don't find it plausible that an officer who insisted on seeing from the Crow's Nest, and rode along the lip of the bluffs at 3411, would turn loose the scouts to Weir without himself being there at the top, especially for this most important and final intel before accepting action. Martin's tale confused Gray and others because being "on" the hill doesn't necessarily mean on the top, which makes the thing confusing, as usual.
Suspect that he'd send folks to the high ground on either side of where he proposed to lead his men lest they ride into an ambush from two sides, which would be Sharpshooter and Weir. I'd also think the hollow on the south of Weir accentuates the height and would really demand someone be up there beyond the scouts whom he did not entirely trust, absent Boyeur I read. But no matter if he saw himself or got intel second hand, he would not sail off up north without a gander at the land awaiting, and I argue the view is not compelling or attractive to any of his plausible scenarios that would surpass MTC's offer of shock, speed, handy, and right there in front of him. I can't believe any officer of minimal experience would head north across the ground visible from Weir given a large, nearby enemy.
But again, I feel momentum and the anxiety that he had to move quick with Reno in action. Kanipe, sent by TWC, was with the headquarters, he says, but not with Custer himself, given the intermediary. Think Custer hit the peak and neither Martin nor Kanipe had him in eyesight the entire time.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 16, 2014 14:38:10 GMT -6
Wagner you would get where gas couldn’t, what are you doing on you tube waving a flag on Weir point.
Only joking mate, well what a coincidence, I thought I was helping you guys out by posting that link, it gives a great view from the top, but never mind, a few posters may like to see it.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Feb 16, 2014 15:36:50 GMT -6
I can't argue, but I don't find it plausible that an officer who insisted on seeing from the Crow's Nest... He was told-- at Halt One-- the village had been spotted. He was not told how far away it was, and even had he been told, I am fairly sure he would have busted his butt to get there and see for himself. (Notice the emphasis I place on speed... fitting with his personality.) ... and DC, I am not saying he wouldn't have gone there-- though I doubt it-- but the information he got from Boyer-- the one scout he trusted-- allowed him to head immediately north, confident he could get a better view without wasting the time. Again, that constant emphasis on speed. Remember, too, he had that F Company contingent out front scouting for him. To me, this is all typical Custer. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 16, 2014 15:45:49 GMT -6
I wanted to post these two... This is Middle Coulee, the drainage between Cedar (off to the right) and West Coulee (off to the left). This picture was taken from the northernmost of the twin Weir Peaks. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 16, 2014 15:48:13 GMT -6
This is the same basic view, only shot from the Weir Peaks "loaf".... Look closely and you can see Battle Ridge and Cemetery Ridge wa-a-ay off in the distance. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 17, 2014 8:08:54 GMT -6
The landscape in Fred’s two photos, show how open the country looks, it’s hard to imagine that this terrain could hide groups of Indians. Just standing on the point the photos were took, gives you a clear view 360° of the whole area, and it’s hard to think that anyone could get the jump on you or even move around without you seeing them.
Ian.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 17, 2014 9:38:34 GMT -6
It's very deceptive, but if you enlarge the photos and stare carefully, you can see the dark creases indicating the earth folding in. It wasn't so grassy in 1876, because herds fed there, but scouts and officers could see and would not willingly head there absent a good recon, which wasn't on the menu.
Fred, who's crafty, has a photo of near the same area taken at a later time of day when shadows expose the horrors well. He knows it drives me crazy that I can't reference it, so he keeps it hidden, cackling as he does. If it ISN'T Fred who put that photo up, and I cannot find it, it's one of his many henchmen who also cackle. Please trust me: to a trained eye (not me, but military types) that is bad ground when you're in enemy country (um, next door to huge encampment) and you don't have time to scout and you don't have enough men to maintain eyes behind as you pass through.
In any case, heading towards LSH from there takes you across MTC, Deep Coulee, Deep Ravine, 1001 gorges and runoffs with great cover, and you can see none of that. It's deceptive and scarily so if you know there are people trying to kill you who know this land. The absence of trees makes it seem smaller, I think, and the grass hides so much and blends into a visual mat. A thousand men could be hidden easily nearby in those photos. True.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 17, 2014 13:06:56 GMT -6
Yes I agree, the light in the photos is very good, probably the same conditions that existed in 1876, and I bet that a little shadow cast from either dawn or dusk would so how broken the ground really is.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Feb 17, 2014 13:16:31 GMT -6
Fred, who's crafty, has a photo of near the same area taken at a later time of day when shadows expose the horrors well. He knows it drives me crazy that I can't reference it, so he keeps it hidden, cackling as he does. If it ISN'T Fred who put that photo up, and I cannot find it, it's one of his many henchmen who also cackle. There is no question you are correct. None whatsoever. In my defense, I am not sure the referenced photo was mine, but anyway, it appears I have lost quite a few pictures and I do not understand why. I thought I had all of them on disks, but I cannot locate them all. After four trips there, I figured I had every inch of grass photographed, but it looks like 2015 is going to be something of a re-do. The photo you are referring to had to have been taken on my 2006 jaunt and those are the misplaced pictures. Maybe I missed a disk...? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 17, 2014 13:51:54 GMT -6
Been trying some retro posting and no joy with Fred’s picture, but I have found a few tit bits to look at. linkJust gotta hope I don’t get sued!
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 17, 2014 13:54:32 GMT -6
A nice aerial shot; Attachments:
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Post by fred on Feb 17, 2014 14:40:55 GMT -6
I am posting two pictures here, DC... the best I can do, but I don't think the Weir Point shot is the one you are talking about. This is one of Middle Coulee again... you can see the various undulations in the ground, but it isn't what you are looking for. If you look closely, you can see a small treelike in the left center of the picture, right where the ground greets the sky. That is the National Cemetery on Cemetery Ridge. This next one is of me standing by the Camp marker on the divide. The Seventh's trail is visible... I doubt that is the "original" trail... and the reason I am putting it up here is so you can see how difficult the Benteen scout terrain was: some of it can be seen on the very far left... Sorry I cannot locate the other, but it does seem I have lost some pictures. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Mike Powell on Feb 17, 2014 16:16:04 GMT -6
Fred, What a great picture at the Divide. Do you have the month and year it was taken? That's really lush and green. Here's one I took in July 2006 that's somewhat drier, with the battlefield about center of the view, of course hidden by intervening bluffs
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