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Post by benteen on Mar 4, 2013 15:27:55 GMT -6
Hi Dan Was Keogh's battalion acting independently of Custer? I think you would first have to show proof that this was the case before passing judgement on his handling of his command. Regards Richard, Yes I believe Keoghs action was his own. Not under any orders from Custer. As to proof I dont think any of us can really prove any of our models. But I will briefly try to explain mine. The battalion is in line. Keoughs battalion in the rear. He spots warriors coming from the Reno fight heading for them. He sends Lt Calhoun and his company to form a skirmish line and fire a couple of volleys (The ones heard on Reno hill) with the thought that that would chase them (They would run away) The rest of the command is still mounted They didnt run. In fact they ditched their ponies and kept coming Now Keogh sees warriors coming from the camp and pouring into the ravine. He knows they can hit L company from the right flank and the rear. So he sends C company to check them. Only problem is that they werent just going into the ravine, they were already there. When C co boots hit the groung they are immediatly hit with fire and lots of it. They fall back . L co sees this and they likewise retreat. It has become a rout. Richard I dont have facts but I do have reasons why I believe this. I wanted to keep it short. But if you want me to explain thats fine by me, Ill do the best I can to explain. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2013 15:38:38 GMT -6
Shat: Perceptive. You are tinkering around the edges. Develop it further if you please.
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Carl
Full Member
Posts: 125
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Post by Carl on Mar 4, 2013 15:44:09 GMT -6
I don't recall the specifics as to exactly why, but some people believe and build a case that Keogh may have been seriously wounded and rendered Hors de combat fairly early in the fight. That might be an explanation as to some of the subsequent movements and actions of elements of his command, as they lacked overall control at a critical time. Even if a succession of command functions properly it still takes a little bit of time, if for nothing else just to inform the next guy in the chain of command (in this case I believe Calhoun) that he is now in charge. However, I have my doubts as to whether such a succession would occur properly given that it was an ad hoc command organization to begin with and everything was happening so rapidly while heavily engaged. If the command did effectively transfer to Calhoun, he may have been too heavily involved in what his own company was doing to immediately extract himself and assume overall command, and, even if he could/did, he probably lacked immediate situational awareness of the overall picture, and maybe he just didn't have the short time needed to figure out what exactly was going on and everyone else was already doing. Well stated. I concur this is a possibility. If Keough was wounded early, would he not have been taken by his men to a safe place, i.e. in the swale ?
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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2013 15:49:42 GMT -6
Carl and Gatewood: Fred's new book will shed light on why Keogh and company were in the swale. That does not preclude him being wounded, but it does provide for another, more legitimate than simple screw up, explanation. I think you will see why when you read it.
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Post by wild on Mar 4, 2013 15:58:25 GMT -6
Hi Dan As to proof I dont think any of us can really prove any of our models. Apologies I did not realise that. Regards
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Post by shatonska on Mar 4, 2013 16:38:36 GMT -6
Shat: Perceptive. You are tinkering around the edges. Develop it further if you please. there are good possibilities it went that way , we must remember ford B is not a point , Custer skirmished at the north side (in front of the cheyennes and between butler's ridge and ggh where there were soldier bodies)but center and south ford B were opposite sans arcs and miniconjou villages , there crossed hundreds of warriors , Custer had the retreat blocked and decided for better ground on battle ridge here i have many different scenes difficult to fit , i think c company was the rear guard from ggh to ffr , then CH with Keogh along the ridge both covering c company (keogh had very soon to leave the ridge and reach the swale because of indian fire on the horse holders from the east , Ch and company), only horses in the swale at the beginning Custer reached cemetery (not further) for a recon for better defensive ground but was pushed back , tried the move of the platoon to dislodge warriors on the ridge over deep ravine (here not c on ffr , i am with michno not fox , kate big head is clear and ffr was a stable position which held until Cahloun collapsed , infact took fire from henryville , Fox explain this if they were soon repulsed ...) , lame white man and suicide warriors charge the soldiers from cemetery over DR ending south of lsh and almost cresting the ridge (where lwm dies) at the same time of crazy horse break , the rest is a rout to lsh and dr with the ending slaughter (where it ends doesn't matter) based on indian accounts the poor archeology and my logic this is the most possible model i have
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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2013 17:02:26 GMT -6
Shat: Well that was not what I had in mind as to developing, but you did develop. There are reasons to disagree with you of course and some will. I will not be one of them, because I could not prove a thing I would say, and most of the others cannot either.
What I asked you to develop though were the reasons I think "Big Village" to be the tell all romance novel of the affair, specificly what transpired leading up to the issuing of the message. If you need more direction as to my intent PM me, because I also wish to see if others stumble upon the importance I place on these two words. Giving it away publicly might spoil what could be a useful exercise, and it just might convice me I am wrong and seeing something where nothing exists.
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Post by shatonska on Mar 4, 2013 17:09:36 GMT -6
Shat: Well that was not what I had in mind as to developing, but you did develop. There are reasons to disagree with you of course and some will. I will not be one of them, because I could not prove a thing I would say, and most of the others cannot either. What I asked you to develop though were the reasons I think "Big Village" to be the tell all romance novel of the affair, specificly what transpired leading up to the issuing of the message. If you need more direction as to my intent PM me, because I also wish to see if others stumble upon the importance I place on these two words. Giving it away publicly might spoil what could be a useful exercise, and it just might convice me I am wrong and seeing something where nothing exists. time to sleep here in Italy tomorrow i'll think about it pm me your idea if you wish , it will be more easy for me to understand i just have ideas i try to fit with accounts , ideas changes , i stayed away 3 years for frustration
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Post by justvisiting on Mar 4, 2013 17:57:42 GMT -6
Hi Dan As to proof I dont think any of us can really prove any of our models.Apologies I did not realise that. Regards Unless you're Rini or Conz, the ultimate advocates for opponents to prove a negative. Billy
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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2013 18:11:00 GMT -6
Shat: Sleep well. Stay away from pre-bedtime pasta. PM sent.
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Post by benteen on Mar 4, 2013 18:21:44 GMT -6
Hi Dan As to proof I dont think any of us can really prove any of our models.Apologies I did not realise that. Regards Richard, No apology needed. I never took it as a challenge, but just asking what my reasons were. Thats certainly fair, as I look back at the post I never did give you my reasons. Allow me a Mulligan and let me start over and perhaps make it a little clearer. I dont believe that Custer ordered Keogh to that position. No opinion I have seen in my mind would justify a commander dropping off 3/5 of his command and continuing on with the rest. I certainly dont buy in any way that they were there to support Benteen, that makes no sense to me. My saying that this was my model was misleading. My only point was to state that I beleive Keogh acted independently. This was just a scenerio as to what may have happened. I base it on the following (not sturdy to be sure) reasons When the warriors were informed that there were other soldiers it probably took them about 15 minutes to get together and head towards Custers column. It was just about the same 15 minutes when Benteen arrived and they first heard the volleys. So the timing is right for them to have attacked the rear of the column. We also know that Lt Calhoun was found in what appeared to be a skirmish line or part of one.Archeologists also found shell casings which appered to be from a skirmish line. It was either Peter Thompson or Count no account that said he saw the men come down and ATTEMPT to form a U shape but were driven back. Key word attempt, meaning they didnt even get a chance to form a skirmish line. I believe this was C company Now with all that being said, this is just a scenerio which can get a lot of holes poked in it (Even by me) my main point is that whatever happened Keogh saw something that he felt he had to take action on. There is also I see the thought that Keogh was wounded. I can buy that, it certainly has merit. It could be that it was Keoghs men that took him to the location. Whatever the opinion or model I can go along with it. My only strong stance is that I dont beleieve Custer ordered Keogh. This was an action by either Keogh or his battalion and was not ordered by Custer. Be Well Dan PS....That is the longest post I two finger typed ;D
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Post by wild on Mar 4, 2013 18:37:22 GMT -6
Hi Dan Thanks for that. For my part maybe I put too much emphases on the disparity in numbers.200+ and fragmented into 40 man units for me just adds up to rout as described by Benteen. Regards
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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2013 21:25:28 GMT -6
On one of these threads about a week ago we briefly discussed Chaplains awarded the Medal of Honor. I learned a few moments ago that another will be awarded the Medal in April by President Obama, Captain (Chaplain) Emil Joseph Kapaun, 8th Cavalry, 1st Cavalry Division, U. S. Army for action(s) in Korea while held as a Prisoner of War. In addition Father Kapaun is an ongoing candidate for sainthood in the Roman Catholic Church.
Thought some of you folks might be interested.
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Post by benteen on Mar 4, 2013 21:29:44 GMT -6
On one of these threads about a week ago we briefly discussed Chaplains awarded the Medal of Honor. I learned a few moments ago that another will be awarded the Medal on April by President Obama, Captain (Chaplain) Emil Jospeph Kapaun U. S. Army for action(s) in Korea while held as a Prisoner of War. In addition Father Kapuan is an ongoing candidate for sainthood in the Roman Catholic Church. Thought some of you folks might be interested. I certainly am Colonel. A big hand salute, and may God bless him. Thanks for posting it. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2013 21:40:26 GMT -6
Dan: If he becomes a saint , the dual honor of Sainthood and a person being awarded The Medal may not stand for long, if he is indeed achieves sainthood first. Is not one of those two Navy Chaplains from the Vietnam era that were previosly awarded The Medal a candidate for Sainthood as well? I thought I heard something about that several years ago.
Captain Kapaun's Medal may be the only one in history awarded, at least in part, for stealing bread.
Captain Kapaun''s additional awards include: The Distinguished Service Cross., The Legion of Merit, The Bronze Star Medal (with V Device ) , and The Purple Heart.
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