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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2013 10:54:38 GMT -6
DC: Points well stated and well received.
Ian: My point with the Big Village, is why was it inserted? The message would still have made sense (not as a coherent military order, but as a message) without it.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 4, 2013 10:59:51 GMT -6
Chuck, the reason I can come up with is that Custer realised he would have his hands full, and thought it prudent to warn Benteen that this will be no picnic.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2013 11:22:17 GMT -6
Ian: The way I see it that was part of the reason. This of course prompts the question as to why he would only at this late date realize that his hands would be full? Seems to me that all the trail signs leading up to the battlefield indicated that indians would be plentiful in number? So I ask again, why is "Big Village" so important in attempting to understand Custer's mind set up to that point?
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Post by wild on Mar 4, 2013 11:49:46 GMT -6
why is "Big Village" so important in attempting to understand Custer's mind set up to that Because the village was ginormous.This was no 150 warrior village ala Washita. Big also complements be quick;adds to the urgency. And remember Benteen observed that the regiment should be kept together.He well understood what was required.
This of course prompts the question as to why he would only at this late date realize that his hands would be full? He only realised at this late date that the Indians would be concentrated not scattered as per Washita.Thus Benteen is sent off to pitch into anything he might find same may have prompted Reno's attack.Dan made this point on the other thread.
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Post by wild on Mar 4, 2013 12:09:19 GMT -6
Dark Cloud This is idiotic, as any obvious dereliction of duty would have been called out by other officers All other officers owe their lives to the derliction of duty. And we now have a senior poster posting that Benteen was obliged to go to Custer. Time we got our story straight guys?
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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2013 12:36:01 GMT -6
DC: I agree that deriliction of duty is an idiotic charge to make against Benteen, and then the resident idiot failed to read which is not surprising the complete statement the gist of which is that Benteen was obligated to go to Custer, until unforseen events intervened to require his immediate attention, and once attended to, he was obligated to continue his assigned mission. He did all these things.
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Post by benteen on Mar 4, 2013 13:52:41 GMT -6
AK, Good idea, but hard to apply to LBH. The vast majority of writing and concepts on LBH are emotional. People flogging their own pet theory, or trying to validate their personal itineraries, despite massive evidence to the contrary. Fact based discussions are difficult to sustain. I am open to the effort. I recommend we identify a single hypothesis, and wag the dog from there. Here is one: the most incompetent performance of any officer at LBH was conducted by Myles Keough. Colonel Montrose, I am glad you pcked Capt Keogh because he is at the center of my model. When Custer headed North their fate was probably sealed anyway, but who knows. At the least they might have made a better account of themselves. It may have been a battle rather than a rout. I believe it was a rout because of Capt Keoghs lack of situational awarness. He failed to understand the determination of these warriors, and went by the Army edict of the day that Indians always run. (I am not blaming the good Capt I think they all felt the same way. Should have known better after they came out in such force against Reno). As far as incompetance I was never an Officer so I dont know if not having situational awarness falls into that category. I let you decide that. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2013 13:59:24 GMT -6
Dan: If you are not blaming Keogh, why not?
If he failed to understand the determination of the warriors, he failed. Blame attaches.
If he did not have situational awareness, he failed. Blame attaches.
If he should have known better, he failed. Blame attaches.
If he did not inflict a maximum of casualties on his adversary, even in a predertimed losing situation, he failed. Blame attaches.
Competent decisions are all based on situational awarenes.
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Post by benteen on Mar 4, 2013 14:16:43 GMT -6
Dan: If you are not blaming Keogh, why not? If he failed to understand the determination of the warriors, he failed. Blame attaches. If he did not have situational awareness, he failed. Blame attaches. If he should have known better, he failed. Blame attaches. If he did not inflict a maximum of casualties on his adversary, even in a predertimed losing situation, he failed. Blame attaches. Competent decisions are all based on situational awarenes. Colonel , OK thank you thats the answer I was looking for. The answer to Col Montrose question then would be yes he was incompetent. I said I dont blame him because I think they all thought the same way. That the Indians would run. Perhaps it is more the Army doctrine or belief of the time that is the culprit Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2013 14:18:52 GMT -6
Then blame attaches to every damned one of them. If something is a spade, call it a spade, Don't dress it up to make it look like the Queen of Hearts.
It had nothing to do with doctrine. If it was present, and I believe it was, it was all about hubris. Blame attaches.
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Post by wild on Mar 4, 2013 14:44:43 GMT -6
he was obligated to continue his assigned mission. He did all these things It behoves the good colonel to aquaint himself with Benteen's testimony to the RCOI before indulging in his usual personal abuse. Red meat was it not that DC has Benteen draging across the floor of the court room? To paraphrase;Was there an order given when you moved down stream?---No.Where was Reno when you moved down stream?I don't know.Did you bring your battalion?I brought one company I think the rest followed. That is what QDC describes as "continuing his assigned mission".A most benign interpretation of post desertion. Benteen's derliction of duty was his placing of his command under Reno in contravention of his orders.
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Post by wild on Mar 4, 2013 14:47:58 GMT -6
Hi Dan Was Keogh's battalion acting independently of Custer? I think you would first have to show proof that this was the case before passing judgement on his handling of his command. Regards
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Post by Gatewood on Mar 4, 2013 14:58:27 GMT -6
I don't recall the specifics as to exactly why, but some people believe and build a case that Keogh may have been seriously wounded and rendered Hors de combat fairly early in the fight. That might be an explanation as to some of the subsequent movements and actions of elements of his command, as they lacked overall control at a critical time.
Even if a succession of command functions properly it still takes a little bit of time, if for nothing else just to inform the next guy in the chain of command (in this case I believe Calhoun) that he is now in charge. However, I have my doubts as to whether such a succession would occur properly given that it was an ad hoc command organization to begin with and everything was happening so rapidly while heavily engaged.
If the command did effectively transfer to Calhoun, he may have been too heavily involved in what his own company was doing to immediately extract himself and assume overall command, and, even if he could/did, he probably lacked immediate situational awareness of the overall picture, and maybe he just didn't have the short time needed to figure out what exactly was going on and everyone else was already doing.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2013 14:58:34 GMT -6
Dan: As far as models go, you and I both agree there were at least four and possibly five company or squadron sized seperate actions once battle ridge was reached. We both agree that each of these actions consumed little in the way of time elapsed. Where we differ, and the only difference is, you see them as happening simultaniously, and I see them happening sequentially with a slight overlap. That is the only difference in total time elapsed.
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Post by shatonska on Mar 4, 2013 15:27:54 GMT -6
AK: I am coming more to believe that the thing most important to understanding this battle, the most material thing, is two words contained in the message to Benteen - "Big Village". mmm , "Big Village" can possibly explain the change of plan , he sees the danger and needs Benteen, instead of charging Custer decides to recon and wait for Benteen in MTC , maybe from boujer's bluff he sees Reno in danger and decides to move 3 companies on the flats for a feint attack (indians tell us the soldiers dismounted , not a charge ) to help Reno while Keogh on Luce gives cover and wait for Benteen the time lost is fatal , hundreds of warriors turn from going against Reno to Custer blocking the way south
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