Does anyone know anything about this subject?

[Gatewood]

It is hard to say for sure how many Indians may have gone to West Point, as there is much disagreement about exactly what constitutes a Native American (i.e., how much "pure blood" that one must have). Although not a West Point graduate, Donald McIntosh who died in Reno's valley fight was part Indian, and Confederate general Stan Waite was a full blooded Cherokee. The first 'mixed race' Indian to graduate from West Point is generally considered to be David Moniac, who graduated way back in 1822, although there is some indication that there may have been one or two before him that, due to their mixed linage, may have not been duly noted. Also, Moniac was Creek, which was one of the 'five civilized tribes' that had largely adopted white ways and lived among them., so he was, in some respects. effectively white. I don't know when the first full blooded Indian may have attended, but the first full blooded (I think) graduate of the Naval Academy was Joseph 'Jocko" Clark, who graduated in 1917 and was a successful carrier commander in the Pacific in World War 2.
I would imagine that the earliest full blooded West Point attendee was a good deal earlier than that.

[quincannon]

None to my knowledge. At least one company, I think Troop L in many if not all of the cavalry regiments were experimentally manned by Indians with Caucasian officers. Did not work out very well, and they were disbanded, the troops mustered out. There were Indian scouts in the Army up until the 1930's or so. Interestingly their branch insignia were crossed arrows, and that insignia was revived when Special Forces became a branch in the U S Army officially. Unofficially it was used before by SF soldiers. They did not become a branch until the 1980's

[Dark Cloud]

I don't think an actual Indian COULD go to WP because.....

1. to go, you'd have to have surrendered a great deal of your culture already, starting with the bit about 'orders.' Hahahahahahaha and you HAVE to obey! Hahahahahaha.....bite me. I'm going to get some sleep and go hunting tomorrow. What do you mean 'no?' BWAHahahahahahaha.......

2. by "Indian", we're clearly just referencing Indians by physical appearance and nothing else. If an Indian, whether on Grant's staff or a WP cadet, spoke and wrote English well enough, he'd already be long gone from the council fires in mind set, especially if he actually WANTED to attend.

3. When I first met a black man who sounded like Alistaire Cook only with a much deeper voice, it took me a while to recalibrate my prejudices, starting with admitting I had any. For my money, wherever you read an account of an Indian who, in translation, reads like a cross between Thomas Carlisle and Ralph Waldo Emerson, I think we can agree that's a sign of a fake set of quotes. Chief Joseph, Osceola, Tecumseh, all of the chiefs who did not actually speak English - a language with many verbal tenses their language did not, remotely, have - can be doubted to ruminate deeply in past pluperfect, utilize colons, or reference Shakespeare.

If Tecumseh, who apparently DID understand what was happening and travelled all over trying to form a united front against the Europeans, had said nothing more than "White folk suck, their treaties suck, their food sucks, their houses suck, their clothing sucks, and everything they touch sucks forevermore and they are nothing more than bison poop. At least if bison poop married a rotten whale on the beach and the children mated with a sulphur pit, THEIR children would be like white men and suckety suck suck suck." We can count on it appearing as "Where are our brothers from the northeast? The Pequot, the Mohican, the Great Fishing Tribe of the Grand Chief of Plymouth Rock? Whilst you remember with me, brave brothers, the air and sky before the scourge from Europe appeared in the Tall Ships of fame and yore, I will list the ships as Homer did in his rather campy classic of Troy......."

[bc]

I know the man dc is talking about. He sells insurance for allstate.

Troop M of the 7th cav was established as a troop of NA scouts. Geronimo was one of them at Fort sill circa 1890s.

bc

[bc]

Oct 14, 2013 9:59:59 GMT -6 benteen said:

trisha,

A soldier who starts out as a private and works his way up to an Officer is known as a "Mustang" The most famous of all in the American Army was Audie Murphy.

Be Well
Dan

I have never heard that term Mustang. I believe Murphy received his as a battlefield commission as opposed to going to ocs. A guy from my home town received one just after D Day around St. Lo. A forward observer for field artillery.

bc

[quincannon]

Mustang is used, as stated in the naval service. Never heard it used in the Army.

Murphy was given a battlefield commission and remained assigned to Company B, 15th Infantry, the same unit he served in as an enlisted man, an exception to policy. After the war he served in the 36th Infantry Division, Texas Army National Guard, and later in the USAR. He never got above Major, I think.

My room mate, one of them anyway, at Benning taking the Basic Course received a battlefield commission in Vietnam, while serving in the 1st ID. He completed that tour as an officer as a platoon leader, then came to Benning to learn to be a platoon leader. He was riffed in 74, reverted to his enlisted rank and rose to become first a battalion, then a brigade, then a division Command Sergeant Major.

[wild]

Sam Jaffe was a fullblooded American who became a fullblooded Indian and rose to the rank of posthumous corporal.

[trisha]

Good morning and thanks guys you must all be fed up with my questions but more I read more I realize(sure like many uk citizens) how little I know about U.S.history .Trisha.

[Gatewood]

Trisha, based upon the things that I see and read I dare say that you probably know more about American history than the typical American does, not to mention geography, math, literature ...... Anyway, you are more than welcome for any help that I can provide. Here on the board we discuss and debate things until it seems there is nothing else to possibly be said, but then someone new like you comes along and gets things stirred up again and brings a fresh insight into things, which often makes us do some rethinking.

[trisha]

Good morning everyone thank you for your kind words Gatewood think average 10yr old better at maths than me.now I've been puzzling over Custer giving evidence to the enquiry for corruption why did he do it? as I see it it was an insult to THE President! He was insinuating that 1 the President was incompetent and didn't know what was going on in his administration or2 he did know and was turning a blind eye because his brother was involved.I haven't much knowledge of the civil war did Grant recommend him for his commissions? if so that was disloyal of him what I can't get my head around is why an ambitious men would want to antagonize the most powerful man in the country.can't see Custer as a humanitarian somehow so why should he care? seems to me he was risking everything (his army career) by getting involved what did he hope to achieve? gentleman I leave it in your hands.Trisha.

[Gatewood]

Trisha, the short answer as to why Custer testified before the investigation was that he was ordered to do so. The longer answer is that he had submitted some reports and letters complaining of the manner in which the trading posts were being run. In this he seems to have been sincere and only doing what he thought was his duty, but it eventually resulted in his being called to testify, somewhat reluctantly. Where he erred was in not limiting his testimony to those things for which he had direct knowledge but also testified as to rumor and inuendo. In particular he implied that Grant's brother was involved, although he had no real evidence of that, and that is what incurred Grant's ire.

I don't recall as to whether Grant had anything to do with Custer's late CW brevet promotion to Major General, but his promotions up to that time were due to the influence of others.

[montrose]

LTC Custer had closely allied himself with the Democratic party. In 1875 he promised he could deliver proof of corruption of the Grant administration. The New York Herald sent a reporter to work directly for Custer for about 6 months. No evidence were found, since the allegations were false.

This did not prevent the Herald from publishing false allegations anyway.

There was corruption in the War Department. Belknap was receiving bribes through his wives. These bribes did not have any link to the Custer accusations. The critical element for Clymer and his allies was not just to take out Belknap, but link it to Grant. Custer said he could deliver this link. He failed. His testimony is riddled with lies and distortions. It was denounced by his entire chain of command.

Note that Custer also made time during his trip to DC to also cast false accusations and slander against Merritt. These charges had been previously investigated, and were known to be false at the time he made them.

Custer had been involved in several shady, unethical business deals that went bust. He was desperate for money. He kept trying to extend his leave that winter to deal with his political and business deals. He finally was denied by Terry, Sheridan and Sherman and ordered to return to duty. He then met with the Herald, and Clymer's staff. The testimony order immediately followed. Custer's extended absence from his command (Sep-May) was no accident, or twist of fate. He planned and fought for it. He put his own interests ahead of that of his unit, the Army, and the Nation; as he had done every moment of his life.

[quincannon]

Trisha: If you wish to know of an officer of the same period as Custer, who embodied all that an officer is supposed to be both in military and personal life look to Major General Joshua L. Chamberlain.

No flash. No sailor shirts. Just pure competence and professionalism. I believe he could have had anything he wanted in the Army after the Civil War, but gave it up to return to civil life. He later became a three term governor of Maine, and then President of his Alma Mater, and is still among Maine's most notable citizens, and one of the Army's most resepected officers.

That is what is expected of Army officers and not low down gutter trash like Custer.

[Dark Cloud]

Chamberlain was pretty terrific, undoubted. He, like Terry, was an amateur who learned in the field. Quickly, because he shot up the officer pole of advance. He was one of those gifted guys whose very presence commanded regard and men liked and obeyed him.

No Custer fan, QC, I think you're hard on him. He felt himself invulnerable and blessed and was physically stronger than he looked, it seems. That's something he shared with Indians, who even when very strong didn't present as white men do. Also, he never quite appreciated that others were not similar and could not endure what he could or do what he could. I've run across that with athletes who honestly think anyone could run just one mile and keep up a conversation. He was relatively poor and a social climber, but he certainly never ordered anyone to do what he had not done himself. That said, he didn't learn in some areas and got people killed. Perhaps thinking himself blessed (destined for greatness, etc.), and they not, it may not have bothered him. Again, we all know folks like that.

He was hypergamic, married above his station, and his wife was world class at social climbing. That's a lot of pressure atop dicing with death in the field. Custer is recalled as a bundle of energy and the government would not turn over a Grand Duke for him to entertain (issues: Russia with Alaska and influence down to San Francisco)if he was a turkey. He overstepped, rose too fast, and could be an ass of the first water, but I think him more typical of the times - and that Army - than we now appreciate.

But virtually anyone would prefer Chamberlain to Custer to serve under or fight against.

[quincannon]

DC: No doubt he had good points. Competence and integrity are two things that are a lot like being pregnant. You either are or your not. You either have it or you do not. There is no middle ground.

Custer reminds me of some modern day athletes and celebrities. They achieve fame early, have no idea how to handle it, then concluded that the rules or those "Normal" do not apply, and usually end up in a bad way.

Chamberlain is probably the model for all times of the citizen soldier, Cincinnatus of a latter day. A man who rises when it is necessary to rise, then forgoes it all for the more important duties of the citizen. He and men like him have been called twice a citizen, and for good reason.