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Post by benteen on Oct 9, 2013 17:18:56 GMT -6
Thank you all have been fascinated with the battle since watching "little big man" Trisha. trisha, There are people in this forum and the other that believe that I wrote, directed, and produced that movie. Be Well Dan
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Post by trisha on Oct 11, 2013 2:52:57 GMT -6
Dan only part movie I found hard to accept was a "mad" custer was this based on some theory of the battle or just made up for the film? With all the different opinions about him. before and since his death differcult see the the real custer what do you think of Whittaker biography? I'm hoping visit battlefield next year sure it will give me better understanding of things.Trisha.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 11, 2013 10:06:14 GMT -6
Whittaker was a scam artist out to make a buck, in much the same way as the "rush to publication tell all the untold story hacks" do this very day.
Custer was a little boy playing dress up with men's lives.
LBH is one of those battlefields that must be visited to gain a true appreciation, and one that you will come away from with more questions than you had when you first got there.
Just do not take sides. Fall into no one's camp. You will still find your understanding of this battle to be as clear as mud, but it will be slightly more transparent mud.
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Post by benteen on Oct 11, 2013 14:55:43 GMT -6
Dan only part movie I found hard to accept was a "mad" custer was this based on some theory of the battle or just made up for the film? With all the different opinions about him. before and since his death differcult see the the real custer what do you think of Whittaker biography? I'm hoping visit battlefield next year sure it will give me better understanding of things.Trisha. Trisha, Truth be told, I saw that movie a long time ago, and don't recall thinking that it was centered around Custer. Just an entertaining movie. As to Whittaker. Don't know much about him, other than he was a dime store writer. Even his claim of Captain has some baggage attached to it. He latched on to Libby and teamed up with her to preserve Custers legacy by blaming Reno for the disaster. I don't know what his motive was. Either sincere or financial. But as I don't believe he ever served or knew Custer (Could be wrong) I would go along with Chuck and say he was in it for the buck. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Oct 11, 2013 15:32:03 GMT -6
Trisha: The guy stumbled UP the stairs and shot himself in the head all in one easy motion. He was probably communing with the spirit world at the time which, beside writing trash, was his other interest. Need I say more.
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Post by trisha on Oct 12, 2013 3:15:26 GMT -6
Hi guys didn't know he was a spiritualist did he claim to be in "contact" with Custer is that how he got involved with Libby? I find her an engima did she have a "perfect marriage" or was she capitalizing on his name and circumstances of his death I can't decide presumably she got a widows pension I've not read any of her books are they of any interest? best wishes Trisha.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 12, 2013 9:54:07 GMT -6
Trisha: I am going on memory here, but I think all the spiritualism came after he wrote the book on Custer. He had a late in life change to his personality, and while I don't believe he was very old when he died, he did exhibit what very well could have been some real mental problem, but then again maybe not, and the possibility exists that he was nothing more than a bastard of the first water.
My opinion of Mrs. Custer is not good nor is it completely fair. She exhibited all the traits, in fact the one trait in a woman I despise, that being Mrs. Colonel or Mrs. General. In other words she wore her husbands rank. I don't know if you have ever been around the military but this type exists, and they are despicable creatures, fit for nothing but a good ass whipping and banishment to a convent, a cloistered convent. Of course she made a name for herself using his name as a door opener. He left her broke, and in debt. Whittaker came along, so she jumped at the chance to keep Custer's name alive, and create two protagonists, and that created conflict bought her groceries for the rest of her life. She was a fairly young woman, when praise God Custer died before he could do more damage, but she never remarries, and reminds me of a dowager empress in some really bad Russian play.
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Post by trisha on Oct 12, 2013 17:19:57 GMT -6
Hi quincannon know exactly type woman you mean.my father was captain in British royal engineers he was 30 yrs older than my mother.he'd retired when I was a baby but told lots of stories about army life my late husband was a captain in the royal company of archers the queens personal bodyguard in Scotland I've lived in Monte Carlo and Andorra both places were full of those types people said when a sergeant major moved to Andorra he dropped the first part! of course custer was working class (do you call it blue collar) and I suppose she was a step up the "social ladder" I'm from the Welsh valleys and was a carer in Monte Carlo there were loads of "Libby" type women looking for "well connected" husbands.when I married one of Monte Carlos Few single youngish(45)men they were furious I loved going to parties where they had to be friendly towards me it nearly killed them what branch of the military are you? To get back to littlebighorn I bought some time ago the boom Participants in the battle only today reading the boards found out this was written by "fred" great book best wishes Trisha.
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Post by trisha on Oct 14, 2013 5:03:11 GMT -6
Hi guys question re West point in most western films I've seen the "old soldiers" are very snooty about officers from there and they have to"prove" themselves with some heroic deed to earn their respect.was this based on fact could you get a commission with out going there? was it possible for someone enlisting as a private to become a general.correct me if I'm wrong but thought it same as our Sandhurst don't think (maybe wrong ) anyone from a poor family would be accepted for entrance there in 19th century. so how did Custer manage to get accepted?.Trisha
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Post by Gatewood on Oct 14, 2013 7:47:18 GMT -6
Hi Trisha - West Point and Sandhurst were not exactly the same. Sandhurst was more of a finishing school, where officer cadets were taught the elements deemed essential to being an officer, whereas West Point was, and is, a true institution of higher learning. As such, it appealed to both those who were truly interested in a militay career, as well as those of humble means who otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford a college education. So, in answer to your question, cadets were not just from well off families, although it did help to have political influence, which was often much the same thing. In Custer's case, legend has it that he secured his appointment through the influence of a local politican who was desirous of getting Custer away from his daughter.
It was possible to receive a commision without attending West Point, and a number of the officers at LBH fit that mold. Some, such as Weir, had attended college elsewhere, while some others had enlisted as privates and worked their way up. Among these were Benteen, French, DeRudio, and Moylan, who enlisted as a private and became an officer on three seperate occasions. Of course these were mostly products of the Civil War, where promotion was rapid, but it was also possible otherwise. General Terry was an example of someone who had not attended West Point yet became a general, although he did have a college education at Yale and was commisioned as a colonel. However, although rarer, it was possible for someone to enlist as a private and eventually become a general, as it is still today, including a recent Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 14, 2013 9:33:10 GMT -6
Trisha: To speak to what you first mentioned - having to prove ones self. That is quite common then and today. As 2nd Lieutenants I would rate from best to worst, generally, graduates of officer candidate school, then Reserve Officers Training Corps, and last those from West Point. The OCS grads usually have a lot of experience before they are commissioned, so they have an immediate advantage over the others. The ROTC grad has a more rounded education, in the main, and their advantage is to be more readily adaptable, and relate to troops much faster. Those from West Point are as a rule, more hide bound, and frankly most of them think their crap does not stink. They have the hardest time of all transitioning from the military-academic environment to that of the "real" army. There comes a point of transition for these fellows around the rank of Captain. Most of those that fail to make the grade bounce out or are bounced out by that time, and are never heard from again. Those that go on usually become fine officers.
Entering as a private and making field grade or general officer is difficult.
The officer that Gatewood refers to is General John Vessey, and is also the only former National Guardsman to be appointed to that position. He had a remarkable career. Another such officer is LTG Dave Grange (senior). He was the last general officer on active duty to have served in WWII, having made one of his combat jumps into Normandy. I had the honor to be associated with him on his last assignment, that being heading up the Army's participation in the 40th anniversary of D-Day in 1984. An absolutely splendid officer and exceptionally fine gentleman.
Shalikashvili also entered as a Private, and was also the first Chairman of foreign birth.
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Post by benteen on Oct 14, 2013 9:59:59 GMT -6
trisha,
A soldier who starts out as a private and works his way up to an Officer is known as a "Mustang" The most famous of all in the American Army was Audie Murphy.
Be Well Dan
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Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 14, 2013 10:14:42 GMT -6
Never served, and what I 'know' is from reading, so the following.
West Point was specifically an engineering school, a huge advantage to Army officers and a higher bar that Sandhurst's (on paper, the reality varied), and was at the time of Custer a five year course. Due to social events in 1861, the curriculum was truncated to get guys in the field with a commission.
H.L. Mencken, our GBS and the reigning critic of his early 20th century day, said the best writers of his time were WP grads. That seems superfluous, but I think speaks highly of the school which understood clear, accurate, and honest writing had decided real world benefits. Mencken knew.
Sandhurst was testament to the existence of aristocracy and class, whereas WP was inevitably devoted to evolving one quite like it. As a result, WP came under fire as unAmerican even before the Civil War, where its grads were considered traitors in large bulk. Because, you see, they were. Not only Grant, but Davy Crockett voted to disband it along with other attempts. A standing military was the criteria of hell to many European immigrants, especially in England,Germany, and other states with military needs where either low population or large need required impressment into Navy and Army against the will of the men at issue. The British Army was redone in the years leading up to WW1. Admiral Fisher was on the board to inflict change in the brother service, as he had been in the Navy. First, was getting rid of aristocratic preferment and rewarding competence and bitch slapping 'tradition' for sole sake of tradition. Socialist, that Admiral Fisher, whose fatheaded changes saved England in time for WW1 and therefore western civilization through his choice for head of the Navy: Jellicoe and many good officers among remaining drivel. Of course, he is not honored in the US as he should be, although we learned and copied.
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Post by wild on Oct 14, 2013 15:47:14 GMT -6
whose fatheaded changes saved England in time for WW1 and therefore western civilization That a joke. Perpetuated is a more fitting term.It perpetuated the British/French version of imperialism The Poles saved Western civilisation outside Warsaw in 1921.
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Post by trisha on Oct 14, 2013 16:53:07 GMT -6
Thank you guys very interesting what I forgot to ask was about Native Americans did any of them go to West point in 19th century.know there were black regiments were there any N.A.ones.best wishes Trisha.
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