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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 14, 2010 7:05:26 GMT -6
Regarding this discussion generally, it appears that there is a basic difference between us about what Benteen was or was not doing. I think you believe that Benteen was truthful about everything whereas I do not. That being the case we will never agree on whether or not Custer needed to advise him of the attack plans and I have already stated elsewhere that I believe Benteen was already aware of what they were.
Moving to contact and recon in force changes to attack with Reno taking the advance. Custer himself knew that Benteen should be informed. So your argument is with Custer. He sent Martin. My argument is that the notification could have been sent sooner.
It is my belief that Custer sent Benteen to the left to block any exodus from the village via that route. I am also of the opinion that Custer was well aware of the general location of the village as the conversations on the Crow's Nest and his positive move in that direction testify.
That cannot be true on Custer reason for sending Benteen that direction. Indians with their camps packed up would not leave the village and go where Benteen was sent. Custer had to be in doubt of the location, which is the only thing that makes sense to me. It would much easier to ride down Reno and block the Indians by crossing the LBH with 6 companies instead of 3.
Certainly everyone was aware that they were following a large trail therefore so did Custer, yet in his testimony Benteen says: "In General Custer's mind there were no Indians nor any village." If Benteen truly believed that then Reno apart, he was the only one. Godfrey negated that in his article in 'The Custer Myth' so Benteen's testimony can only have been self-serving.
They allowed all kinds of statements at the RCOI some would never be admissible in civilian courts. It is a waste of time to argue that someone has lied when they make statements of what someone else thought. It’s at best an opinion and not subject to the same test of veracity. There are experts witnesses that have opposing opinions all the time. Does it mean one is lying if the other is correct?
Whatever Custer believed whilst on the Crow's Nest, he did not send Benteen to the left because of it. The Captain's mission was part of Custer's attack plan and should be viewed in that light I suggest. It is also unlikely that the target was any satellite villages in that area as being closer than the main village the scouts would have seen their smoke from the Crow's Nest. My view of Benteen's mission has already been stated.
My guess is if you ride that country you would understand Benteen’s frustration. Anyone with prior knowledge would not have sent anyone that direction. In Custer’s defense I don’t believe he knew the terrain. What was interesting is that the view from the divide does not appear as rugged as the terrain encountered you see only a few higher elevations but every time we topped a hill there was more in between that were not observed.
If you come and ride that country there is no reason to send anyone in that direction unless you do have clue of the terrain or the village location. Everything that needed to be done could be accomplished by Benteen crossing the river with Reno,
It is wrong to state that Custer recalled Benteen to the village. By his own testimony Benteen stated more than once that he had come back to the main trail because, "My idea was that there was more for me to do on the trail, that there was fighting going on or would be going on on the trail, and that I had better get back and help them." And there we have it. If Custer did not believe there was a village or Indians there then what fighting could possibly occur? Did only Benteen appreciate the true situation? If so, why did none of the other officers apart from Reno condemn Custer?
What Benteen did has nothing to do with message sent by Custer. It only got delivered sooner because Benteen had returned to Reno Creek. As far as the big village I do not believe that Custer believed until he saw it. There is no justification to send Benteen on that particular route if the actual village size and location is known.
The two points that are consistently overlooked in these discussions are: 1) the view of the entire Army command structure that Indians always ran in the face of an Army attack and 2) that every column in the field were capable of dealing with any number of Indians they came across. These were Terry's views when he sent Custer and would undoubtedly have been foremost in Custer's mind when he went on the attack. The realization that the Indians were not going to run and because of that the overwhelming numbers he faced did not come, I think, until he saw how many non-combatants there were running to the north. By then he had no choice but keep on the attack.
I don’t think many overlook the Indians would run in my opinion. It was clear from Terry’s orders that was a consideration. I am also sure that when Benteen recommended that the column should stick together that a thought that Benteen was right crossed Custer’s mind when he sent Martin was the written note.
You ask how Benteen's lies might benefit him? How about by letting him describe his mission as pointless therefore justifying his violation of his orders and by making his return to the trail look inspired as his timely arrival saved Reno's command? After all, who post-battle was considered the savior of the Seventh?
Benteen is using hindsight and it spot on regarding the mission to the left. It was a waste of time. I give Custer a break only if he didn’t believe there was a big village north of the junction of RC and LBH.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 14, 2010 7:22:09 GMT -6
I think there is something in regards to "horse condition" that may be causing some issues. A horse can be in good condition and jaded as Godfrey recorded in his diary at the same time.
Overall condition is different than the ability of horse to continue on at any specific point in time. If one is describing the exercise level, muscle and fat ratios etc then a horse could be in good condition yet that same horse after 12 hours may not be able to gallop another 10 miles.
My horse when covered in sweat and dried salt with his gut sucked in does not look the same as when I started in the morning. A horse that wintered on the plains and not ridden much could appear in poor condition. Those observations are not the same thing. My horse recovers quickly and the horse with it ribs showing takes much longer to reach a good condition.
My point is that I believe they could be describing two different conditions. Overall condition as compared to immediate ability to preform.
AZ Ranger
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Post by fred on Dec 14, 2010 7:51:21 GMT -6
... did Benteen actually say "Custer did not believe there were Indians or a village in the LBH valley....?" Or did he say Custer didn't believe his scouts had seen such? There's a difference. Benteen said the following at the RCOI: • “There was no plan at all…. Valley hunting ad infinitum.” [421] • Benteen was adamant about this when asked by the Recorder a little later in the inquiry. He told the court that Reno had no right to expect any assistance from him. Benteen went on: “If there had been any plan of battle, enough of that plan would have been communicated to me so that I would have known what to do under certain circumstances. Not having done that I do not believe there was any plan. In General Custer’s mind there was a belief that there were no Indians nor any village.” [427] Then he was asked: Q: “You acted on your own judgment in returning to the point where you met Major Reno?” A: “Entirely.” [421] “My idea was there was more for me to do on the trail. That there was fighting going on or would be going on on the trail, and that I had better go back and help them. I thought I had gone far enough and that I would be needed on the trail.” [436] Q: “Was there any limitation… in regard to the distance you should go in the direction you were sent?” A: “No limitations, only as to the valleys.” [436] Written probably in 1890—1892 [from Graham, The Custer Myth, “The Benteen Manuscript”]: ... there was a summons for officers’ call. Custer told Benteen he had been on the “mountain” and the scouts told him of seeing dust, Indians, and ponies, but Custer couldn’t see anything through an old telescope and did not believe them. [167, 179] Benteen says he did believe the scouts, trusting rather the sharp eyes of an Indian to even his own binoculars that he always carried. This, from experience. He said nothing to Custer, because he wasn’t invited to “chip in.” [167, 179] (The double page numbers refer to the hand-written manuscript and the type-set manuscript.) Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Dec 14, 2010 7:51:46 GMT -6
... did Benteen actually say "Custer did not believe there were Indians or a village in the LBH valley....?" Or did he say Custer didn't believe his scouts had seen such? There's a difference. Benteen said the following at the RCOI: • “There was no plan at all…. Valley hunting ad infinitum.” [421] • Benteen was adamant about this when asked by the Recorder a little later in the inquiry. He told the court that Reno had no right to expect any assistance from him. Benteen went on: “If there had been any plan of battle, enough of that plan would have been communicated to me so that I would have known what to do under certain circumstances. Not having done that I do not believe there was any plan. In General Custer’s mind there was a belief that there were no Indians nor any village.” [427] Then he was asked: Q: “You acted on your own judgment in returning to the point where you met Major Reno?” A: “Entirely.” [421] “My idea was there was more for me to do on the trail. That there was fighting going on or would be going on on the trail, and that I had better go back and help them. I thought I had gone far enough and that I would be needed on the trail.” [436] Q: “Was there any limitation… in regard to the distance you should go in the direction you were sent?” A: “No limitations, only as to the valleys.” [436] Written probably in 1890—1892 [from Graham, The Custer Myth, “The Benteen Manuscript”]: ... there was a summons for officers’ call. Custer told Benteen he had been on the “mountain” and the scouts told him of seeing dust, Indians, and ponies, but Custer couldn’t see anything through an old telescope and did not believe them. [167, 179] Benteen says he did believe the scouts, trusting rather the sharp eyes of an Indian to even his own binoculars that he always carried. This, from experience. He said nothing to Custer, because he wasn’t invited to “chip in.” [167, 179] (The double page numbers refer to the hand-written manuscript and the type-set manuscript.) Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 14, 2010 8:06:07 GMT -6
Benteen's statements make it sound like Custer had no idea what he was doing . . . grasping at straws . . . and hoping to find something before the Indians got away.
And when Custer did find something (running Indians that Reno was ordered to 'bring to battle') Custer failed to inform Benteen of the further separation of command and an attack plan.
It would seem in Benteen's mind Custer was "winging it" and the subsequent events was the fault of Custer.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 14, 2010 16:16:15 GMT -6
HP Here is was what I responded to. If I misinterpted it then I erred. I was answering the question that I put in red below. If we both agree that no messengers were sent to Benteen before Kanipe/Martin then I erred in what I thought it meant. Why did Custer not inform Benteen about his separation from Reno? Who says he didn't? Benteen, who also said that Custer did not believe there were Indians or a village in the LBH valley, yet Custer, a successful Civil War commander, still took the regiment into that valley. Against what or who if he did not believe there was anything there? In my opinion you place too much weight on what Benteen and others said didn't happen and not enough on the logic of what would have happened militarily in the circumstances. I can say that the Moon is made of blue cheese but it doesn't make it so.AZ Ranger AZ, a poor word construction from me misled you. Sorry for that. "Hunk" Papa
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 14, 2010 17:13:06 GMT -6
Certainly everyone was aware that they were following a large trail therefore so did Custer, yet in his testimony Benteen says: "In General Custer's mind there were no Indians nor any village." If Benteen truly believed that then Reno apart, he was the only one. Godfrey negated that in his article in 'The Custer Myth' so Benteen's testimony can only have been self-serving.
They allowed all kinds of statements at the RCOI some would never be admissible in civilian courts. It is a waste of time to argue that someone has lied when they make statements of what someone else thought. It’s at best an opinion and not subject to the same test of veracity. There are experts witnesses that have opposing opinions all the time. Does it mean one is lying if the other is correct?
Regards
AZ Ranger[/quote]
AZ, The debate between us is being conducted from totally polemic viewpoints. I have seen you defend Benteen many times and admire your tenacity. I do not have the same faith in the Captain. I have used only the above extract from your post to illustrate how differently we read things.
Your comment that it is a waste of time to argue that someone has lied when they make statements of what someone else thought might be acceptable if those statements are a reflection of their genuine opinion but in Benteen's case that is just not so.
In his 'Comments' in 'The Custer Myth' page 295, the then General Godfrey says: "I confess to considerable surprise that Reno and Benteen had testified at the Court of Inquiry 'That Custer expressed a disbelief in the near proximity of any village whatever at that time.' A number of us were already grouped when Keogh came up and told of the incident of Sergeant Curtis and the lost pack. Tom Custer jumped up and said that he was going to report to the General. He and the General soon returned and officers' call was sounded. At the conclusion of his talk the General ordered us to return to our troops, inspect them,and report when we were ready for the march; and he said that the troops would take their places in column of march in the order of reports. As we dispersed, Benteen and I walked toward our troops together. We had proceeded not more than fifty yards when, to my surprise, Benteen faced about and reported his troop ready. Benteen was beside me at the officers' call. I relate this to show that what one could hear the other could hear. I feel perfectly sure that such an expression of disbelief from the General would have made an unforgettable impression on my mind."[/b]
Thus at the RCOI Benteen was not making a statement of what someone else thought, he was lying, because he had heard nothing from Custer that could have justifiied the testimony he gave as Godfrey makes clear.
That is but one example of why I doubt a lot of what Benteen said or wrote. In fact, much of what he wrote is different to what he said at the RCOI. Defend him if you will, but not, I suggest, in every circumstance.
Sincerely,
"Hunk" Papa
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 14, 2010 17:34:01 GMT -6
Benteen's statements make it sound like Custer had no idea what he was doing . . . grasping at straws . . . and hoping to find something before the Indians got away. And when Custer did find something (running Indians that Reno was ordered to 'bring to battle') Custer failed to inform Benteen of the further separation of command and an attack plan. It would seem in Benteen's mind Custer was "winging it" and the subsequent events was the fault of Custer. Is it possible that Benteen had an agenda when making these 'statements?' From my reading of what he did and later justified, I have very little faith in the Captain's veracity.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 15, 2010 7:20:55 GMT -6
Thus at the RCOI Benteen was not making a statement of what someone else thought, he was lying, because he had heard nothing from Custer that could have justified the testimony he gave as Godfrey makes clear.
That is but one example of why I doubt a lot of what Benteen said or wrote. In fact, much of what he wrote is different to what he said at the RCOI. Defend him if you will, but not, I suggest, in every circumstance.
Sincerely,
"Hunk" Papa
Repeating what someone thought they heard someone say is not the same as stating what they thought. I would agree with that and that is why hearsay is not acceptable in most situations.
I think this is still about the location of the Indians and not that Indians existed somewhere along the LBH. If you believe they were camped in a big village 2 miles north of Reno Creek then Benteen would not have been sent.
There are presentations at military courts of inquiry that seem a lot looser to me on the what is presented. Since it was Reno's Court of Inquiry it left Benteen without representation and cross examination ability. I am sure he knew that and took advantage during the time he testified.
I know I am jaded in our justice court system and whether we seek truth in someones defense or only to confuse. Benteen would be an amateur in that regard as far as diverting the attention focus on Reno to others.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 15, 2010 7:38:03 GMT -6
Here is an example of what we are discussing. Some state that Benteen lied when he stated Custer stated that he did not believe there were Indians. When you read Benteen's answer(below) it would appear some leave out the "there" which is a location and not the existence of Indians. Custer's action of sending Benteen to the left is consistent with believing there were Indians down along the LBH just not sure of the "there".
If someone wants to make the argument that Benteen lied and Custer believed the Scouts could see a village, ponies, tepees and smoke at a partcular location "there" it would make Custer's decision to send Benteen a very poor decision.
A. They were made probably 4 hours after we marched* I think at the first halt, an orderly came to me with instructions for the officers to assemble at a point where he was, for an officers call. No bugle was sounded for officers' call: an orderly was sent to get them together. General Custer told us that he had Just come down from the mountain; that he had been told by the Scouts that they could see a village, ponies, tepees and smoke. He gave it to us as his belief that they were mistaken; that there were no Indians there; that he had looked through his glass and could not see any, and did not think there were any there.
AZ Ranger
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 15, 2010 13:22:09 GMT -6
<Is it possible that Benteen had an agenda . . .>
Yes . . . he wanted to show that it was Custer's fault for what happened . . . not Reno's and certainly not his.
He didn't come out and say "Blame Custer" . . . but his testimony certainly leads one to believe that.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 15, 2010 14:54:19 GMT -6
<Is it possible that Benteen had an agenda . . .> Yes . . . he wanted to show that it was Custer's fault for what happened . . . not Reno's and certainly not his. He didn't come out and say "Blame Custer" . . . but his testimony certainly leads one to believe that. Exactly!
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 15, 2010 15:08:36 GMT -6
Repeating what someone thought they heard someone say is not the same as stating what they thought. I would agree with that and that is why hearsay is not acceptable in most situations.
I think this is still about the location of the Indians and not that Indians existed somewhere along the LBH. If you believe they were camped in a big village 2 miles north of Reno Creek then Benteen would not have been sent.
There are presentations at military courts of inquiry that seem a lot looser to me on the what is presented. Since it was Reno's Court of Inquiry it left Benteen without representation and cross examination ability. I am sure he knew that and took advantage during the time he testified.
I know I am jaded in our justice court system and whether we seek truth in someones defense or only to confuse. Benteen would be an amateur in that regard as far as diverting the attention focus on Reno to others.
Regards
AZ Ranger This whole business of who stated what someone else thought is getting just too convoluted. Godfrey was not referring to what anyone thought he was stating as a fact that both Benteen and Reno were mistating the issue at the RCOI. Now if you choose to believe that Benteen was a mischievous innocent in all this then so be it. I am also puzzled by why you think Benteen would not have been sent if Custer was fully aware of the location of the village. Perhaps you could explain your reasoning as I can see no logical connection there. However loose military courts of inquiry might seem to you, each witness swears to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If the system is so lax, why bother with that formality? Sincerely, "Hunk" Papa
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 15, 2010 15:48:43 GMT -6
Here is an example of what we are discussing. Some state that Benteen lied when he stated Custer stated that he did not believe there were Indians. When you read Benteen's answer(below) it would appear some leave out the "there" which is a location and not the existence of Indians. Custer's action of sending Benteen to the left is consistent with believing there were Indians down along the LBH just not sure of the "there". If someone wants to make the argument that Benteen lied and Custer believed the Scouts could see a village, ponies, tepees and smoke at a partcular location "there" it would make Custer's decision to send Benteen a very poor decision. A. They were made probably 4 hours after we marched* I think at the first halt, an orderly came to me with instructions for the officers to assemble at a point where he was, for an officers call. No bugle was sounded for officers' call: an orderly was sent to get them together. General Custer told us that he had Just come down from the mountain; that he had been told by the Scouts that they could see a village, ponies, tepees and smoke. He gave it to us as his belief that they were mistaken; that there were no Indians there; that he had looked through his glass and could not see any, and did not think there were any there.AZ Ranger I do not know where the extract you have quoted comes from. Certainly not his RCOI testimony or either of his two narratives as far as I can see. Nor is it evident when he used those words, before or after the RCOI. I would appreciate the source if you have it as that would be helpful. What he said at the RCOI however, is unequivocal. "In General Custer's mind there were no Indians nor any village." Once again, your belief that knowledge of the village location made the sending of Benteen to the left by Custer a poor decision needs expansion. Sincerely, "Hunk" Papa
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Post by clw on Dec 15, 2010 16:16:14 GMT -6
Assuming Custer knew where the village was, and I think he did, there was no way he could have known this. Sending Benteen on the oblique was a most likely some sort of containment movement. Custer thought he'd been discovered (by a non existant village?), so he would be expecting the people to be on the move. They wouldn't head downstream, they were right on the edge of Crow country. They obviously wouldn't head toward the soldiers. If indeed they felt threatened, they would have headed upstream. As they did when it was all over. So why not send Benteen in that direction to be sure there were no leakers?
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