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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 9, 2010 7:59:00 GMT -6
Hunk I will state that Benteen was not sent a messenger at the same time Reno was sent to the advance down Reno Creek. It was a change of going on the attack from moving to contact which is important.
Benteen stated it and there is no one claiming to be that messenger or anyone stating there was a messenger bring the news that were on the attack.
Both Kanipe if one believes him and Martin had to have left long after Reno was sent on the advance.
The note Martin delivered indicates a change in status from moving to contact to an attack of the Big Village.
As far as what Benteen states as Custer's beliefs it is his opinion of the conversation they had and its kind of hard to argue that. Custer sending Benteen to the left over rough terrain indicates to me that he was not sure where the Indians were located. The extent of Custer's disbelief of the location of the Indians is evident in how he approached the LBH.
They all knew including the privates that they were following a trail. So one must confine the discussion they had to their current location with observations from the Crow's Nest or the move to the LBH.
Benteen did not say there were no Indians making the trail they were following.
The point of belief for Custer came around the time of sending the message that Martin carried in my opinion. "Big Village"
Bottom line if Custer believed there were thousands of ponies observed to the right of the Reno Creek drainage and along the hills to the west of the LBH in the valley then he had no need to send Benteen to the left. Which is what happened once he saw the village. He recalled Benteen to the village.
AZ Ranger
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Post by clw on Dec 9, 2010 11:30:19 GMT -6
Thanks boys. Lead on, Hunk!! Bottom line if Custer believed there were thousands of ponies observed to the right of the Reno Creek drainage and along the hills to the west of the LBH in the valley then he had no need to send Benteen to the left. AZ Ranger I don't see why the location of the pony herd precludes the possibility of additional camps being located further south along the river and events at Washita had to color his consideration here I would think. Custer's orders from Terry did include the precaution of "feeling constantly... to your left, so as to preclude the possibility of the escape of the Indians to the south or southeast by passing around your left flank. Another possible reason for deploying Benteen left.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 9, 2010 11:52:43 GMT -6
So what changed Custer's mind to call for Benteen. I believe it was the Big Village and if you saw thousands of horses together it would have indicated a big village and not small ones separated by miles.
If Benteen continue on a line to the LBH valley he is miles from the observed ponies and the village viewed by Custer.
I don't think Custer believed what the ponies indicated. The scouts told him yet he sent Benteen in a different direction. That is what I believe Benteen was referring to when stated Custer did not believe the scouts.
Nothing changed for the potential of camps further south when Custer called for Benteen.
So to me does a large pony herd indicate a large village. I would think that along with the smoke that it would.
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Post by clw on Dec 9, 2010 12:34:11 GMT -6
So what changed Custer's mind to call for Benteen. He didn't 'change his mind'. Benteen was ordered to scout and return to the command -- preferably sometime before July. He was called for because he was overdue --and needed badly. I hadn't considered that was what Benteen was referring to. It's entirely possible. There will always be questions as to whether Custer believed his NDN scouts. And there will always be questions as to why Benteen was sent out. Another consideration is that no medical personnel were sent with Benteen. If Custer had expected Benteen to engage rather than recon, surely he would have sent one of the doctors with him?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 9, 2010 19:09:07 GMT -6
I cannot recall what the current thinking is on the lodges on Ash/Reno Creek that were reduced down to the Lone/Few tipis by the time Custer passed them. However.....
Custer may have seen that group from the Crow's Nest, and I think we have accounts that others saw it and would have mentioned it, surely. With that gestating, he has a small village breaking up before him but a ton of horses claimed by the scouts further on. That could mean there were a bunch of various sized 'villages' or circles in the area with a common herd of spare mounts keeping to the lush valley.
There's sense to that from the Sioux view: they were in mutual support, but far enough apart for more comfort and sanitation issues would not accumulate so quick. Custer may have thought something like that.
That doesn't conflict with his task for Benteen and the return if nothing but only report if something. If melds with his decision to ride north before he'd seen the whole village and might have expected a series of small groups like the one they saw leaving as they arrived. Which is to say, he thought the huge village they had trailed pulled apart in the LBH valley for all the reasons they might do so.
That has logic and minimal irreversibility about it until he sent Reno off and there were now four units of the 7th and an assumption for a target.
Something like, anyway.
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Post by clw on Dec 9, 2010 20:46:59 GMT -6
Haven't I heard somewhere that the burning lodge was a remnant of the camp that launched the attack on Crook? If so, it would have been abandoned several days before the 7th found it.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 10, 2010 6:57:11 GMT -6
I think the 6 troopers could accomplish the scout. Custer told Benteen to pitch into anything he found. That requires the additional troopers adding up to 3 companies. A scout alone does not need 3 companies.
If the lack of doctors indicates that Benteen was not expected to engage what a waste of three companies. Custer was smarter than that. He did not know the exact location and did not believe the scouts knew the exact location therefore he sent Benteen on a recon in force in case there were Indians not indicated by the smoke or ponies.
clw You should ride the Benteen movement to the left and see what you think. I think Terry is up to it at least one more time.
My point is that some want to make Benteen a liar and use this comment about Custer not believing his scouts as an example. How does that benefit Benteen?
Its what he didn't believe of the scout's statements not that there were not Indians making the tracks they were following and located at the end of the tracks.
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 10, 2010 7:03:40 GMT -6
As far as the village it was 2 miles north of the junction of Reno Creek and LBH approximately. The angle Benteen took could have him miles to the south of the junction. I don't know how many valleys we saw on Benteen's route but there was a lot of them. The up and downs were numerous. Attachments:
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Post by clw on Dec 10, 2010 8:51:17 GMT -6
Since you've ridden it Steve, do you believe Gibson saw the LBH valley?
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Post by zekesgirl on Dec 10, 2010 15:29:46 GMT -6
WWWEEEE! The Benteen slide!
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 11, 2010 8:06:33 GMT -6
I believe he could see a part of it but not enough to make a decision that there were no Indians to the south of Reno Creek along the LBH valley.
It would be interesting to have heard the report to Benteen and the decision making process. Terry Craft (zekesgirl) also rode it. We rode up to where Gibson would have a view of SRC and Reno Creek. I believe there was a narrow view of the LBH valley.
The problem I have is that recon is easier when you see something and make a decision. To me it takes longer to decide that there is nothing there rather than you haven't seen it. In this type of terrain that we rode it require more time to clear it and move on to the next ridge. It would also take time to pick a way through it. The defiles that Godfrey talks about are there and you have to search for them in order to make a crossing in the bottom of a drainage. You can not cross just anywhere and even when found they are single file through dense foliage and steep banks.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 13, 2010 16:28:39 GMT -6
Hunk I will state that Benteen was not sent a messenger at the same time Reno was sent to the advance down Reno Creek. It was a change of going on the attack from moving to contact which is important. Benteen stated it and there is no one claiming to be that messenger or anyone stating there was a messenger bring the news that were on the attack. Both Kanipe if one believes him and Martin had to have left long after Reno was sent on the advance. The note Martin delivered indicates a change in status from moving to contact to an attack of the Big Village. As far as what Benteen states as Custer's beliefs it is his opinion of the conversation they had and its kind of hard to argue that. Custer sending Benteen to the left over rough terrain indicates to me that he was not sure where the Indians were located. The extent of Custer's disbelief of the location of the Indians is evident in how he approached the LBH. They all knew including the privates that they were following a trail. So one must confine the discussion they had to their current location with observations from the Crow's Nest or the move to the LBH. Benteen did not say there were no Indians making the trail they were following. The point of belief for Custer came around the time of sending the message that Martin carried in my opinion. "Big Village" Bottom line if Custer believed there were thousands of ponies observed to the right of the Reno Creek drainage and along the hills to the west of the LBH in the valley then he had no need to send Benteen to the left. Which is what happened once he saw the village. He recalled Benteen to the village. AZ Ranger AZ, I cannot recall saying that a messenger was sent to Benteen at the same time that Reno was sent to the advance. There was a discussion between me an crzhrs on the 'Custer's holding role' thread in 'Custeriana' concerning where Benteen was when Reno was ordered to the attack but I am not sure if that is what you were referring to. Can you please clarify this for me? Regarding this discussion generally, it appears that there is a basic difference between us about what Benteen was or was not doing. I think you believe that Benteen was truthful about everything whereas I do not. That being the case we will never agree on whether or not Custer needed to advise him of the attack plans and I have already stated elsewhere that I believe Benteen was already aware of what they were. It is my belief that Custer sent Benteen to the left to block any exodus from the village via that route. I am also of the opinion that Custer was well aware of the general location of the village as the conversations on the Crow's Nest and his positive move in that direction testify. Certainly everyone was aware that they were following a large trail therefore so did Custer, yet in his testimony Benteen says: "In General Custer's mind there were no Indians nor any village." If Benteen truly believed that then Reno apart, he was the only one. Godfrey negated that in his article in 'The Custer Myth' so Benteen's testimony can only have been self-serving. Custer's point of belief' as you call it did not come at the time of sending Martin. According to Kanipe in his Camp interview he was told that if he saw Benteen he was to tell the Captain "to come quick - a big Indian camp." Of course it is easy to cast doubt on Kanipe's veracity but why should he be doubted whilst Reno and Benteen are not? Whatever Custer believed whilst on the Crow's Nest, he did not send Benteen to the left because of it. The Captain's mission was part of Custer's attack plan and should be viewed in that light I suggest. It is also unlikely that the target was any satellite villages in that area as being closer than the main village the scouts would have seen their smoke from the Crow's Nest. My view of Benteen's mission has already been stated. It is wrong to state that Custer recalled Benteen to the village. By his own testimony Benteen stated more than once that he had come back to the main trail because, "My idea was that there was more for me to do on the trail, that there was fighting going on or would be going on on the trail, and that I had better get back and help them." And there we have it. If Custer did not believe there was a village or Indians there then what fighting could possibly occur? Did only Benteen appreciate the true situation? If so, why did none of the other officers apart from Reno condemn Custer? The two points thate are consistently overlooked in these discussions are: 1) the view of the entire Army command structure that Indians always ran in the face of an Army attack and 2) that every column in the field were capable of dealing with any number of Indians they came across. These were Terry's views when he sent Custer and would undoubtedly have been foremost in Custer's mind when he went on the attack. The realization that the Indians were not going to run and because of that the overwhelming numbers he faced did not come, I think, until he saw how many non-combatants there were running to the north. By then he had no choice but keep on the attack. You ask how Benteen's lies might benefit him? How about by letting him describe his mission as pointless therefore justifying his violation of his orders and by making his return to the trail look inspired as his timely arrival saved Reno's command? After all, who post-battle was considered the savior of the Seventh? Sadee, I hope I have also addressed some of your points here. It's really pleasing to see you back with us. "Hunk" Papa
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 14, 2010 6:04:01 GMT -6
HP
Here is was what I responded to. If I misinterpted it then I erred. I was answering the question that I put in red below. If we both agree that no messengers were sent to Benteen before Kanipe/Martin then I erred in what I thought it meant.
Why did Custer not inform Benteen about his separation from Reno? Who says he didn't? Benteen, who also said that Custer did not believe there were Indians or a village in the LBH valley, yet Custer, a successful Civil War commander, still took the regiment into that valley. Against what or who if he did not believe there was anything there? In my opinion you place too much weight on what Benteen and others said didn't happen and not enough on the logic of what would have happened militarily in the circumstances. I can say that the Moon is made of blue cheese but it doesn't make it so.
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 14, 2010 6:14:14 GMT -6
Custer's point of belief' as you call it did not come at the time of sending Martin. According to Kanipe in his Camp interview he was told that if he saw Benteen he was to tell the Captain "to come quick - a big Indian camp." Of course it is easy to cast doubt on Kanipe's veracity but why should he be doubted whilst Reno and Benteen are not?
I ask myself the following questions. Why would Tom Custer use the same language as the note written by Cooke. Why would Tom Custer think that Kanipe might run into Benteen on the way to the pack train?
My current theory is that Kanipe was following stragglers which would be his job and he would expect them to be traveling to the pack train for horses or to stay.
AZ Ranger
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 14, 2010 6:42:11 GMT -6
I'm not looking it up, but did Benteen actually say "Custer did not believe there were Indians or a village in the LBH valley....?" Or did he say Custer didn't believe his scouts had seen such? There's a difference. Given the trail's size and direction, that would be an odd conclusion.
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