|
Post by Beth on Feb 13, 2015 14:30:53 GMT -6
Beth Shiloh the first truly bloody conflict was in the west and not well covered by the press and no know photos of any kind were taken after the battle. Alexander Gardner's graphic photos of Antietam coupled with the growing casualty lists in the papers took the bloom off the lily of glorious war. Regards Dave I agree, photograph had a huge impact in the Civil War and beyond. Before death of soldiers a war were faceless names unless they were from your town, village or hamlet. Photography let the people back home put real people to those faceless names and vividly imagine what could happen to their loved ones. Remember before the Civil War dead were buried at the battlefield and oftentime in mass pits. The Civil War brought embalming into the mainstream and better transportation, a way to get the loved one home. Beth
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 13, 2015 14:50:01 GMT -6
Beth, the dead were mostly buried on the battlefield through WWII. The huge battle markers across Europe for the British and American dead sometimes feature headstones for everyone, but the bodies are often in the ground under or within marble mausoleums under the heroic statuary. Most dead were by artillery, and artillery doesn't always leave much to bury. And most people could not afford the reconstruction and shipping home of the dead. The LBH illustrates that. It was a big bloody deal when the British announced they'd buried officers in mass graves with "other ranks." Part manifestation of Democratic decency, part manifestation of reality and epidemics stemming from doing else.
WWI produced huge ossuaries with German, French, British bones all mixed in. Both sides used cadavers for parapets and corpses hung on the wire for years. No other choice.
The expense and risk taken today to get bodies back to the US would have flabbergasted anyone before 1950. Officers, sure, but enlisted men? Unheard of to the degree westerners pursue this. But because westerners do it, and they seem to win a lot, everyone now does it to a degree. Social climbing. Of course, the US is virtually the only one with soldiers all over the globe who faces the expense of money and time (dna evidence) and facility. The Navy has it right. Burial at sea. Shouldn't be viewed different than on land, but easy for me to say.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Feb 13, 2015 16:01:16 GMT -6
Beth, the dead were mostly buried on the battlefield through WWII. The huge battle markers across Europe for the British and American dead sometimes feature headstones for everyone, but the bodies are often in the ground under or within marble mausoleums under the heroic statuary. Most dead were by artillery, and artillery doesn't always leave much to bury. And most people could not afford the reconstruction and shipping home of the dead. The LBH illustrates that. It was a big bloody deal when the British announced they'd buried officers in mass graves with "other ranks." Part manifestation of Democratic decency, part manifestation of reality and epidemics stemming from doing else. WWI produced huge ossuaries with German, French, British bones all mixed in. Both sides used cadavers for parapets and corpses hung on the wire for years. No other choice. The expense and risk taken today to get bodies back to the US would have flabbergasted anyone before 1950. Officers, sure, but enlisted men? Unheard of to the degree westerners pursue this. But because westerners do it, and they seem to win a lot, everyone now does it to a degree. Social climbing. Of course, the US is virtually the only one with soldiers all over the globe who faces the expense of money and time (dna evidence) and facility. The Navy has it right. Burial at sea. Shouldn't be viewed different than on land, but easy for me to say. I agree. Bringing bodies home was a luxury that was only offered to officers or afforded by the rich. I believe it was also more accepted that the dead be buried with their fallen brother in armes in National Cemetaries abroad.. We still bury soldiers with other fallen soldiers, it's just now people elect to have the family member possibly buried in National Cemetery closer to home or an area designated in a local graveyard. I believe that it was the Civil War that changed people's attitudes about common burial pits. Even the unknown were given individual markers and spots, when possible. If you know of any war before that please let me know because I find tombstones and funeral art interesting. And yes I know that some of those unknowns have very little bits in those boxes. DNA has changed things though so there will never be any more "unknown" burials, perhaps just perpetual MIA's. I don't know what the right answer is Burial at sea vrs . We seen to use a lot of space to bury dead bodies many of whom were once long forgotten however thanks to things like findagrave.com people can now locate family members and have virtual family cemeteries. At one time I would have considered those cemeteries a waste of good land but they have become urban oases for wildlife and plants. Beth
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Feb 15, 2015 4:52:44 GMT -6
I hung this thread up several days ago, with the intent of moving on to Ford D at some point. I also mentioned somewhere that I was going to bring up a thought or two I had about some alternate movements. Fred's timelines work out perfectly throughout and he has it locked down. So here goes. Fred I know you and Gordy discussed his scenario and disagreed. I don't ask you to change your opinion. What I do ask, is, after the retreat from Ford B could his scenario or some variation have played out using the time allotted. I also have a question or two about Ford D. I will bring those up with that thread as I feel there is much hidden there as well. Thank you in advance for your thoughts. AZ, your thoughts here would be appreciated as well as I know you have read the book. Chris did you not read the book as well?
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 15, 2015 6:52:17 GMT -6
I have read the book Tom (twice and used it constantly for reference with time lines and other stuff), so if I may I will say a few things in regards to any pull back from Ford B:
I think that the whole column entered MTC, except for the F Coy detail which I think would have rode along the ridge line on right flank and just ahead of the column, my thoughts on how the lined up are RHQ/F/E/I/L/C, they divided one they got about halfway down, I/L/C moved up right and rode along the same trail as the F Coy detail, which by now had reached the N/C/L Ridges, E Company rode straight down to the flats facing Ford B, RHQ/F Company moved straight to the higher ground overlooking the flats.
So now the column is split into three (four if we count the F Coy detail, which may even have moved onto Calhoun or Battle ridge), the main body of I/L/C were way back overlooking the other two, so these two rather small groups would be susceptible to attack and with having around 54 and 38 men respectively, so they would feel vulnerable to any group the size of the Wolftooth band which could have had around 50 warriors, and to my mind this band plus around a couple of dozen more adjacent to the ford, would have given Custer some concern as the RHQ/F/E united and moved back away from the river, now they must have drew some fire, the WT band would have been the major threat, they were all mounted and on the eastern side of the river so any fire by Keogh would have been towards this group.
Now this is a grey area for me, did they all unite on Calhoun hill or maybe Battle ridge? One other scenario could be that only the RHQ went to meet with Keogh on Calhoun hill and both F and E went to Battle ridge and linked up with the F Coy detail.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Feb 15, 2015 8:13:42 GMT -6
Ian, are you saying HQ also entered MTC?
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 15, 2015 13:40:07 GMT -6
Tom, as you know my knowledge is limited to many others on this board, plus I have never been to the LBH, but I would imagine that when they all came out of Cedar coulee and into MTC they would have a quick formation check and get in order, so I again imagine that this would best done in wide coulee like MTC rather than a narrow one like Cedar, maybe Cedar cause a fragmentation of the column because of its nature.
So after any short re-group in MTC they may have moved down towards the river, splitting off as they moved, so my guess is that the RHQ moved onto an elevated area allowing E Company to recce the flats, so it would resemble four stages;
E Company recce the flats RHQ/F Company covering from an elevated area just behind I/L/C overseeing with deep cover on the ridges F Company Detail keeping watch to the north and northwest from Battle Ridge
So this is just an idea of mine and probably way off, but that’s how I would imagine a five Company battle group based on an understanding that there was no attack planned at Ford B.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 15, 2015 14:44:42 GMT -6
I hung this thread up several days ago, with the intent of moving on to Ford D at some point. I also mentioned somewhere that I was going to bring up a thought or two I had about some alternate movements. Fred's timelines work out perfectly throughout and he has it locked down. So here goes. Fred I know you and Gordy discussed his scenario and disagreed. I don't ask you to change your opinion. What I do ask, is, after the retreat from Ford B could his scenario or some variation have played out using the time allotted. I also have a question or two about Ford D. I will bring those up with that thread as I feel there is much hidden there as well. Thank you in advance for your thoughts. AZ, your thoughts here would be appreciated as well as I know you have read the book. Chris did you not read the book as well? Regards, Tom Tom In 2010 we were to stay at the 7th Ranch and Gordie was heading up ICE (Independent Company of Explorers). There were certain locations that he wanted to GPS and we were to meet with some Cheyennes. It never happened and his daughter Tori showed up in his place. She got the book published which is amazing. I believe Monte Aker whom I met last year was very instrumental with that. Chapter 10 which you are asking about was not written by Gordie. It was written by Gordon Richards. In my correspondence with Gordie the last chapter does not appear always consistent with what he posted. For sure Gordie believed they went to Ford D and the fighting was mostly on the way back. Of all the chapters that needed his touch it would be that one. I too would like to move to Ford D and share what I listened to at the Friends meeting last year. Several of the NPS persons that I have gotten to know were there along with Scott. Regards Steve
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Feb 16, 2015 6:04:59 GMT -6
I picked this post up from another thread, thought it might also pertain here, could not drag the attached photo. The photo can be viewed using the link below and scrolling down the page. I was wondering if the original poster could tell us where the gap is located with regard to the photo. It appears another, earlier Beth has a good question here.
Regards, Tom
elisabeth said: If Keogh was not in the swale all along, but on the ridge, could he be seen from Custer's position? From other photos, I'd assume he could ...
You mention hearing the firing. That, I realise, might mask other sounds; but in terms of sheer distance, would you say that bugle calls from Keogh's final position could be heard at Custer's? And vice versa?
(A sudden thought re the famous "signal" volleys. If they were indeed a distress signal, and not simply a way of fending off Indians ... could they have been a signal from Keogh to Custer, rather than from Custer to Benteen/Reno? On the assumption that the Ford D trip did happen, it might make sense that Keogh would attempt to recall Custer once things started to hot up ...)
Elisabeth--
When we were there in June, two of the fellows could not figure out the Keogh business. Actually, I think it extends to a lot more than two, but.... We walked this area-- the Keogh Sector (the trail was open), all along Battle Ridge from the monument to Calhoun Hill and beyond. As we did so, we game-played the battle and I must say it works out very nicely. The Keogh business is one of the most perplexing, but it is solvable... at least I believe it is.
Part of my ideas about this battle stem from the Fox work. I believe Custer did move toward Ford D with the intention of containing the so-called refugees. Again, remember, my theory relies of the fact that I believe none of Custer's column was under heavy pressure from the Indians. Of course, this all goes back to even earlier than Ford B, but I'm getting off track.
As we walked Battle Ridge, we game played. Everyone agreed that Keogh sent Harrington into Calhoun Coulee to relieve the pressure they were beginning to feel from encroaching Indians firing arrows in the air and hitting troops and horses from up above. There is a perfect spot on Battle Ridge, not far from where Calhoun was entrenched, where Keogh could have observed both Calhoun's position and Harrington's move into the coulee. We even photographed it.
Now, without getting into specifics here (I'll save that for those new threads if and when the occasion arises) I will simply say, this was a perfect spot for Keogh to over-view his entire position and command. Why wouldn't a commander have been in this exact location? My logic now makes me believe his command (specifically, Company I) was not too far away. That probably means somewhere along the military crest of the ridge, maybe a tad bit below, with horse-holders sequestered in a very nice, very convenient swale area below where Calhoun and Harrington would have had their horses.
As the battle unfolded, it is my belief that Keogh was forced ever lower down the ridge, diagonally northeast into where the markers are generally placed. This could have easily happened by swarming Indians coming up Calhoun Coulee, Finley Ridge, and up and over Calhoun Hill. They would have also had pressure from Indians coming up the southern fork of Deep Ravine (these Indians could have been seen by Custer/Yates and could have drawn some of those volleys, especially if the Crazy Horse contingent were among them [not because it was Crazy Horse, but because his entourage would have been rather large]). The troops would also have had pressure from the east: it would have been a turkey-shoot from that direction. So where do men go when they have this kind of pressure? The same place E Company men sought protection: the ravines.
And so on.
Best wishes, Fred.
Read more: lbha.proboards.com/thread/2874/june-25-trip-ford?page=1#ixzz3RuPSwFxB
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 16, 2015 9:17:50 GMT -6
I hung this thread up several days ago, with the intent of moving on to Ford D at some point. I also mentioned somewhere that I was going to bring up a thought or two I had about some alternate movements. Fred's timelines work out perfectly throughout and he has it locked down. So here goes. Fred I know you and Gordy discussed his scenario and disagreed. I don't ask you to change your opinion. What I do ask, is, after the retreat from Ford B could his scenario or some variation have played out using the time allotted. I also have a question or two about Ford D. I will bring those up with that thread as I feel there is much hidden there as well. Thank you in advance for your thoughts. AZ, your thoughts here would be appreciated as well as I know you have read the book. Chris did you not read the book as well? Regards, Tom I saved this from Gordie to Wild. Have no idea if this would be his final theory. Wild: Strange as it may seem, I haven't the slightest idea where it was posted - either on a thread dealing with Keogh, or Ford D or something like that. I only make these things up; I don't keep track of them. Generally speaking [there are, of course, lots of specifics], Custer crossed over MTC from the east of SSR onto the Luce Ridge area where he could for the first time see the full extent of the camps [they extended just past Deep Ravine Ford] and at the same time could see what he took to be a general decampment by the NAs. This led him to believe that Reno had been successful in his valley mission. He also knew, or thought he did, that the balance of the regiment was being hurried forward, so he hustled to cut off the "retreat" of his quarry, brushing aside a few warriors who were already on the east side of the Little Horn - this was a mere handful at the time, probably returning hunters. He would have been on Luce at about H1535 [Wallace time] and kept on at good speed across Blummer/Nye/Cartwright, passing by Calhoun Hill at about H1545, and Custer Hill a few minutes later, heading for the vicinity of the northern fords [although this is commonly called Ford D, there were a couple in the same area]. He was guided in this by Mich Bouyer, who was intimately familiar with the area. Custer arrived in the vicinity of the fords at about H1600, where he ran into stiff opposition, learning that what he had thought were fleeing NAs were nothing of the sort, but largely warriors coming out to block him from getting into the camps. Some - dozens if not hundreds - were already on his side of the river. E Company was tasked with protecting his right flank as he attempted to return the way he had come. H1610/15, they fired several volleys into the camps and attempted to move up the slope north of Deep Ravine, but never made it to the top. Meanwhile Custer with F and C and Keogh with L and I made it to the Custer Hill area, where their progress was blocked by warriors on the east and north, and there was sharp fighting, causing Keogh to enter the swale as his line of march. As he was moving along, warriors charged in behind him effectively lopping his command off from the companies with Custer, and splitting C Company in two - half to die pretty much where they were struck, and half being driven over Battle Ridge where they were killed or chased diagonally across to Finley, and perhaps a few down toward the river. H1625/30. This left Custer with more or less F Company in the Custer Hill environs [plus a few C men], where they were whittled down by long range fire from virtually all directions and finally swept away. H1730 maybe. Meanwhile, Keogh had been shedding dead and wounded as he tried to advance, and this advance was finally halted by warriors who stopped Calhoun dead in his tracks at Calhoun Hill, lopped him off from Keogh by a pointed charge H1640/45, and chopped up the several parts, including those who fled down the ridge toward Finley. H1700. Keogh was then mopped up H1710, and the last pockets of resistance overcome. H1730 maybe. That's it in a nutshell - subject to revision in the details, of course. The times have to be tested, but I think are fairly close to actual, based upon Wallace's previous times and Custer's movements since H1400. Note that I do not believe that Custer was sitting around waiting for Benteen, although he might well have been expecting him to show up somewhere [up to a certain point in time, when I think he knew he was toast unless he could get back to whence he came]. Gordie MC
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 16, 2015 9:42:11 GMT -6
I bet Geordie certainly made waves with that very interesting theory.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Feb 16, 2015 11:39:33 GMT -6
Steve, tactically, It would have made sense for Custer to have attempted to move forward with the entire command. We hear a great deal about tactics and this movement certainly, in my opinion, makes George look smarter. No more alive, but smarter!
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 16, 2015 12:02:44 GMT -6
Tom
I think Gordie had spent some time with Weibert and is similar to what Weibert believed.
Steve
|
|
|
Post by fred on Feb 16, 2015 12:37:37 GMT -6
I think Gordie had spent some time with Weibert and is similar to what Weibert believed. I think you may be right. Gordie and I agreed on very few things. Since he is dead and cannot, therefore, defend himself, I will let it go at that. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 16, 2015 13:23:19 GMT -6
I must say that I agree with him on certain points but disagree on others, for one I agree with this;
He could for the first time see the full extent of the camps [they extended just past Deep Ravine Ford] and at the same time could see what he took to be a general decampment by the NAs. This led him to believe that Reno had been successful in his valley mission. He also knew, or thought he did, that the balance of the regiment was being hurried forward.
But if Geordie means that he went to the fords with all five companies and never sent troops to ford B or fought in skirmish Calhoun hill, then I don’t agree.
Ian.
|
|