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Post by fred on Nov 15, 2007 20:59:19 GMT -6
Keogh's company was probably the northern-most of the three in his battalion and in all likelihood, they maintained an administrative position, possibly well below the military crest of Battle Ridge. Their horse were placed out of sight from Indians approaching across the Ford B area... [Keogh's swale, looking up toward Calhoun Hill.]They waited... Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Nov 19, 2007 7:35:23 GMT -6
Keogh sector episode: occurred on east side of the ridge. • I Company’s first bodies were found about 30 yards from where Calhoun’s remains were found. [Liddic, Vanishing Victory, p. 155] • Both LT Edgerly and LT McClernand (who was with Gibbon’s column) felt that from the positioning of the I Company bodies, the unit was in retreat. [Liddic, p. 155] This ties in with Fox. • Unlike C and L Companies, both of which gave way under pressure, the remains—including Company I—moved from stability to chaos, primarily from panic. • It appears the panic developing on Calhoun Hill, fed by the retreating remnants of Co. C, caught up the remainder of Co. L. This fed into Co. I and they all fled along Keogh Ridge together. • Apparently, after the Company C rout and their remains seeking out the safety of Company I, virtually the entire right wing was now dismounted. This does not mean they had lost all their horses. • Infiltrating and attacking Indians were now west (Greasy Grass Ridge and Calhoun Coulee), south (Calhoun Hill), and northeast of the right wing. • Crazy Horse had gotten across Custer Ridge and charged the line of fleeing troops, splitting it in half. Most soldiers were still dismounted and now lost their horses. This large warrior force that overwhelmed the right wing took a considerable time to accumulate. (How considerable?) Warrior numbers, when the left wing (Custer/Yates) departed Calhoun Hill, were still quite small. The vast majority of Indians arrived in Custer Ridge vicinity after the 2 battalions split up. The Indians had not seen the left wing depart and were surprised when they first encountered the left wing group of soldiers. • Apparently, officers tried to rally their stampeding soldiers: Indians heard a bugle at which time some soldiers mounted their horses. • Indians tell of 4 soldiers who tried to get away by riding south towards Calhoun Hill. This may have been a result of a charge up Cemetery Ridge, across Custer Hill, and onto Custer Ridge by a band of Cheyenne and Sioux boys (suicide boys), possibly the first Indians to cut off the retreating right wing soldiers. [Fox, Archaeology, History, and Custer’s Last Battle, p. 167] Other troops tried going west toward the LBH. Some tried to flee east. Some 10-12 ran to west side of ridge, onto Custer Hill, towards left wing. • After Crazy Horse’s charge split the soldiers in half, one group continued to head for Custer Hill, the second group—the more southern one—went down the slope on the eastern side of the ridge, i.e., into the Keogh sector. • Up to 70 cavalry markers in this sector: 30 [C and L] + 70 [C, I, and L] = 100.
** This indicates possibly as few as 21 of the 121 officers and EM who remained with the Keogh battalion, made it to Custer Hill. • Archaeological evidence indicates very low-level soldier responses; points to close-in fighting by the Indians.
Fox—“Neither Gall nor Rain-in-the-face seems to have recognized the limitations of the single-shot carbine in close-in fighting and the propensity among terrified men to abandon arms altogether... how utterly foreign terror-filled combat behavior was to the ... Plains warrior.”
• If this was the case, tactical stability was certainly lost, i.e., too many dead, too little physical evidence of returned gunfire. • In all likelihood, the soldiers discarded their single-shot carbines which had to be ineffective with the Indians so close. Advantages of the carbine: range, accuracy, and stopping power. Close-in fighting negated these advantages. • Proximity of the warriors to soldiers rendered the repeater more effective than the Springfield carbine. • Keogh’s body and those of a number of his men were found near a cluster of bushes: SGT Varden; SGT Bustard; CPL Wild; TMP Patton; PVT Lloyd. Indians hiding near these bushes could have finished them off all at once.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 1, 2011 4:19:55 GMT -6
Hi Fred, did Keogh have about 118 men in his Wing ?. Coy I (36) Coy C (38) & Coy L (44), its just that my figures just don't add up and I want to be able to post correct numbers if I want to be included in any discussions on this forum (I don't want to look a turkey), because so far I have got 205 total (I know there were 210 but I am working on it) KIA so far in Custer's Battalion. Regards Ian.
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Post by fred on Jul 1, 2011 4:49:54 GMT -6
... did Keogh have about 118 men in his Wing ?. Coy I (36) Coy C (38) & Coy L (44), its just that my figures just don't add up and I want to be able to post correct numbers if I want to be included in any discussions on this forum (I don't want to look a turkey), because so far I have got 205 total (I know there were 210 but I am working on it) KIA so far in Custer's Battalion. Ian, Each of the companies had 38 men except "L," which had 46. There were 12 in HQ. In the book I wrote, I included the numbers they were given on the June "Returns." You only have to add in the civilians: Boyer, Kellogg, Autie Reed, and Boston Custer. So that's, what, 206 blueshirts and four in mufti. Keogh's battalion had 122 including Keogh himself. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 1, 2011 5:08:33 GMT -6
Thanks Fred, My stuffs all over the place, concerning the HQ I have this: Custer’s HQ (14 KIA, if you take away: two messengers & four Indian scouts, but add two messengers sent to Custer and Boston Custer). Regards Ian.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 11, 2015 11:14:11 GMT -6
In view of the gap conversation in Fred's book and some interest by others in Keogh. This thread might generate some conversation. As always I would recommend reading Fred's original post, and take it from there.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 11, 2015 14:39:38 GMT -6
Good god have I been here that long!
Good call Tom, that's a great picture to work from, and if Keogh was in that swale, he would have had no view at all of L & C companies, which would seem strange seeing that he was in command of three not one company, or maybe I am being a little unfair on the captain and he was riding along the crest line, keeping tabs when he got hit.
Ian.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 11, 2015 14:49:57 GMT -6
Ian, this may be the strangest action contained in a very strangely prosecuted battle. Montrose thinks Keogh gets a free ride and Scarface seems to thinks he is a gallant cavalier. Maybe someone can convince us one way or the other. Then again it may not be worth their time. The pix is good!
Regards, Tom
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Post by chris on Feb 11, 2015 15:07:05 GMT -6
Fred, I'm squinting and think there are 4 markers in that photo. From your reasearch - are they identified? Best, c.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 11, 2015 15:12:56 GMT -6
I would love to see that Popeye look.
Regards, Tom
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Post by chris on Feb 11, 2015 15:16:42 GMT -6
Tom, Go eat some spinach.
Fred, I'm thinking markers 160 to 164 - maybe?
Best, c.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 11, 2015 15:20:39 GMT -6
Don't ask me, I can't read them either.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Feb 11, 2015 15:24:05 GMT -6
I find this and the Calhoun sections of battle the most confusing. Fred's book has helped greatly but I still can't say I have it down pat. I'll appreciate any discussion offered.
Beth
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Post by chris on Feb 11, 2015 15:25:10 GMT -6
Tom, I didn't ask you.
Best, c.
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Post by chris on Feb 11, 2015 15:29:46 GMT -6
Beth, Confusing to me as well. Chuck helped a lot with his explanations but then I grasped the "gap" from Fred - bingo!
Sure wish we had old photos of the battlefield road construction and a thread to discuss it. Best, c.
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