Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 9:35:25 GMT -6
Chuck, I'm well aware of my limited Custer knowledge. So if anyone's looking for me - I've gone fission. Best, c.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 27, 2014 9:37:55 GMT -6
Somehow I think you have used that one before Chris.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 27, 2014 14:43:06 GMT -6
In the event that anyone looked upon my remark above that Chris was the man to ask about any nuclear issues associated with Custer, I want to make something perfectly clear. Chris is a friend of mine, a good friend whom I communicate with off board on a weekly basis. He is also a nuclear engineer, which is several levels above my pay grade. I just ran out of expertise areas that I attributed to others and when I got to Chris the fact that he knows more about nuclear power and nuclear issues in general was the first thing that popped into my mind. He is also very astute about this battle, and to give credit where due, some of you may remember me talking about my prefered in a perfect world killing ground north of Ford D and west of battle ridge extension, it was Chris who called my attention to that area first based upon questions he directed at me, concerning routes of march to the battle space. So if anyone thought anything else, consider the fault mine for failing to explain.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 15:29:42 GMT -6
Chuck, Please delete your post. This comes from a misunderstanding on my part. Which I regret. No harm done. Here's a public thanks for your patience in explaining strategy and tactics, errors, egos and the like! Best, c.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 27, 2014 15:39:03 GMT -6
Not a chance Chris. You are a good man, and I let my attempt at humor get away with me a wee bit, and I deserved to be brought up on an at least an Article 15 for it.
|
|
|
Post by Mulligan on Aug 26, 2014 14:05:10 GMT -6
Hi Board and Moderator Diane,
Call me Mulligan. I've had a life-long interest in the Custer battlefield "mystery", but only now beginning to search online resources for answers. This board seems to have all the experts, plus a few comedians. Hope a few vets can point me in the right direction regarding unsolved Little Bighorn issues.
Years ago I wrote college papers on the battle using available books from library, bookstore, etc., so well acquainted with key players of battle and published writers up through Evan S. Connell. I've read excerpts from more recent Donovan and Philbrick works but these contemporary writers seem a touch lowbrow. Don't know if anyone agrees with me on this.
Just finished Sixty-Six Years in Custer's Shadow, by Henry Weibert -- signed copy! His Bouyer theory is seemingly far-fetched, of course, but I approached his book as a "work of art", as instructed in the introduction. Weibert weaves a multiple level Le Carre-like tale of possible double and triple crosses by Custer's opposition on the plains and within the government. Very clever way to inspire "out of the box" thinking on the subject.
My first question to the board has to do with the Weibert Cartridge Collection, and the other casings removed from the ranchland adjacent to the battlefield by Blummer, Luce, Nye, Cartwright, et al, in the 1920's through the 1940's.
Are these artifacts extant? Are they in a collection accessible to investigators? Have they ever been forensically analyzed? Has any attempt been made to match them with NPS artifacts known to be from within the battlefield proper?
Am I out of line to speculate these cartridges may have been planted by individuals interested in the 1926 50th anniversary of the battle? Am I wrong to speculate they may be period artifacts from Fort Custer soldiers engaging in informal firing practice?
Is there scientific evidence to support their authenticity as 6/26/76 battle related?
So, that's my introduction and my first question to the board. Current discussion posts here leave the answers rather vague and unresolved. Can anyone give me 2014 facts?
Thanks,
Mulligan
|
|
|
Post by fred on Aug 26, 2014 16:08:06 GMT -6
Mulligan,
First of all, welcome here. This is a fine collection of LBH minds that will also wander off-- maddeningly-- into other subjects as well. So if these other things bother you, just skip over them and continue to ask questions and posit ideas. Just remember, if you put up a theory, be prepared to back it with data. There are other LBH sites, but none as discerning as this one. We have some serious, head-slapping "hall monitors" here.
Now... a feeble attempt to answer your questions...
The Weibert-Boyer theory is sheer bunk. I have not read anything Weibert wrote, but when someone puts out stuff like that, to me it isn't worth the time and effort.
As for his cartridge finds, my answer is simply, I do not know. Regardless, whatever he found changes nothing. There are plenty accounts telling us the general flow of the battle and as far as I know, then only accepted cartridge artifacts-- and I may be way off here, so continue to delve-- are those found by Blummer, Nye, Luce, Scott, and Fox and their people. Jason Pitsch found a considerable number in the valley and those have been generally accepted as being from the fighting. Jerome Greene, Glen Swanson, Doug Scott, Rich Fox, and others seem to think so anyway.
The battlefield has been salted in any number of ways, but those cartridges are generally identifiable (the 1876 cartridges were not head-stamped, so anything with a stamp on it is not battle-related: I have one such).
I hope this is reasonably satisfactory... and I hope to see a lot more of you here.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Aug 26, 2014 16:13:19 GMT -6
Welcome Mulligan, I might just be a comedian so don't take my word as gospel. I have visited the LBH twice, first time a waste of time, this past June I walked a fair amount of the field from morass to waist deep at Ford B. No one can give you a lock down on planted artifacts or shooting done on ranches adjacent to LBH. You can however look at artifacts not displayed, if have reason and bonifides. AZ Ranger has ridden most of the area, DC will tell you much could have been left around after the battle by numerous people traipsing around shooting willy/nilly. You have come to the right place to start. What you won't get here is fluff, what you might get are insightful questions. I hope your feelings are not easily hurt, as nobody means to do that. Be open and ask your questions. Again welcome. Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by fred on Aug 26, 2014 19:01:20 GMT -6
Fred, could you copy and repost this on an appropriate thread and maybe delete it here? It's valuable and nobody would look here. Absolutely, DC. I put it under "Independent Research" and titled the thread, "Battlefield Artifacts." I deleted the post here. Mulligan... check out the new thread. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Mulligan on Aug 26, 2014 23:00:14 GMT -6
Wow, Fred! Wow, Everybody!
Thanks to everyone for the warm, quick welcome and tons of valuable information!! I hope Dark Cloud can direct my questions (and members' answers) to appropriate sites on the board for awhile until I get a sense of where to post my inquiries and thoughts.
Yes, the LBH artifact list and cartridge count is voluminous. I'll certainly have future questions regarding relics from the ongoing "archaeology" at Ford D (?) and other northerly positions along the LBH that Custer may have advanced to while he was in "offensive" combat mode.
Fred, my question about the Nye-Cartwright cartridges is more along the line of "Where are they now, exactly?" (specific locations for various collections, 2014), and "Have these cartridges ever been subjected to laboratory analysis, side by side, against the battlefield cartridges that Fox investigated in his forensic study?" My latter question would be looking for a definite "Yes" or "No".
Obviously, it would be critical to understanding the battle sequence if any of the NC cartridges -- found by any of the men previously mentioned -- matched up with any of the weapons and cartridges that appear in the Fox analysis. I think that if this type of forensic comparison hasn't occurred, or a serious, documented attempt hasn't been made to perform one, it probably indicates that the NC cartridges are unrelated to the battle and the science guys (and project-funding guys) at NPS know this for a fact.
To anyone's knowledge has Douglas Scott or Richard Fox ever spoken to this NC question?
~~~
And, Fred, even if you can't swallow the late Henry Weibert's theories don't be so hasty in dismissing him as a source of enlightenment. You should really read Sixty-Six Years Under Custer's Shadow. I bought a lightly used, signed copy from an online seller recently for less than twenty bucks.
The book's introduction clearly states that it is written in a non-literal way, perhaps more as a stylized impression of how events may have played out. I believe Weibert's unusual "Bouyer kills Custer" scenario is actually intended as a creative metaphor. Weibert may be subtly leading us to consider that Custer had many enemies within his own ranks, and not necessarily just those in uniform on the battlefield. In his oblique way, perhaps Weibert is suggesting we look beyond the unexpectedly well-armed Indian warriors for the true answer as to who was the ultimate author of Custer's fatal appointment along the LBH.
Furthermore, it is not insignificant that as an experienced local rancher Weibert brings to this discussion an authentic voice regarding the visceral issues of horsemanship and LBH terrain. And because he lived on the Crow Agency for decades his insights into Native American thinking and cultural expression are invaluable tools for understanding the later Indian testimony about the battle -- IMHO, of course.
So, OK, back to my original question: If I want to hold Blummer's, or Weibert's, or Supt. Luce's Nye-Cartwright cartridge cases in my hand where can I find them today?
In the meantime cue the regimental band, please. While we wait for answers I think the General would like some light entertainment.
Mulligan
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 27, 2014 6:29:16 GMT -6
Wow, Fred! Wow, Everybody! Thanks to everyone for the warm, quick welcome and tons of valuable information!! I hope Dark Cloud can direct my questions (and members' answers) to appropriate sites on the board for awhile until I get a sense of where to post my inquiries and thoughts. Yes, the LBH artifact list and cartridge count is voluminous. I'll certainly have future questions regarding relics from the ongoing "archaeology" at Ford D (?) and other northerly positions along the LBH that Custer may have advanced to while he was in "offensive" combat mode. Fred, my question about the Nye-Cartwright cartridges is more along the line of "Where are they now, exactly?" (specific locations for various collections, 2014), and "Have these cartridges ever been subjected to laboratory analysis, side by side, against the battlefield cartridges that Fox investigated in his forensic study?" My latter question would be looking for a definite "Yes" or "No". Obviously, it would be critical to understanding the battle sequence if any of the NC cartridges -- found by any of the men previously mentioned -- matched up with any of the weapons and cartridges that appear in the Fox analysis. I think that if this type of forensic comparison hasn't occurred, or a serious, documented attempt hasn't been made to perform one, it probably indicates that the NC cartridges are unrelated to the battle and the science guys (and project-funding guys) at NPS know this for a fact. To anyone's knowledge has Douglas Scott or Richard Fox ever spoken to this NC question? ~~~ And, Fred, even if you can't swallow the late Henry Weibert's theories don't be so hasty in dismissing him as a source of enlightenment. You should really read Sixty-Six Years Under Custer's Shadow. I bought a lightly used, signed copy from an online seller recently for less than twenty bucks. The book's introduction clearly states that it is written in a non-literal way, perhaps more as a stylized impression of how events may have played out. I believe Weibert's unusual "Bouyer kills Custer" scenario is actually intended as a creative metaphor. Weibert may be subtly leading us to consider that Custer had many enemies within his own ranks, and not necessarily just those in uniform on the battlefield. In his oblique way, perhaps Weibert is suggesting we look beyond the unexpectedly well-armed Indian warriors for the true answer as to who was the ultimate author of Custer's fatal appointment along the LBH. Furthermore, it is not insignificant that as an experienced local rancher Weibert brings to this discussion an authentic voice regarding the visceral issues of horsemanship and LBH terrain. And because he lived on the Crow Agency for decades his insights into Native American thinking and cultural expression are invaluable tools for understanding the later Indian testimony about the battle -- IMHO, of course. So, OK, back to my original question: If I want to hold Blummer's, or Weibert's, or Supt. Luce's Nye-Cartwright cartridge cases in my hand where can I find them today? In the meantime cue the regimental band, please. While we wait for answers I think the General would like some light entertainment. Mulligan I believe the NPS artifacts are in Tucson Arizona. The home of a great University Regards AZ Ranger
|
|
jpru
New Member
Posts: 19
|
Post by jpru on Oct 12, 2014 22:52:34 GMT -6
All, Hi my name is Jon. i came across this website back in the spring while trying to do some research on the Battle of the LBH. its been fascinating learning new info and having many many of my misperceptions of the battle and participants cleared up. I am an avid reader, like to travel and have an interest in military history.
I served as an infantry officer in the US Army from 96 -02 at Benning, Campbell and hood. From 02-09 I worked at ft Leavenworth as a threat specialist for the TRADOC Intel support activity providing adversary replication in experiments studies and wargames - I fought the U.S. army longer than I was in it. Since 09 I have been out in northern VA supporting the marine corps wargaming division. I'm a scenario developer and wargame designer.
I'm fascinated by military disasters so I've had a working knowledge of the LBH for some time, but not to the level of detail as many of you. I will say that Hollywood renditions of the battle colored my earlier beliefs about the battle and its participants particularly son of the morning star. I have not been to this battlefield yet, but I've been to many others all over the world. Living in northern VA I can't help but trip over civil war sites everywhere (which is pretty cool).
I've learned quite a lot from you all so far. Cheers! Jon
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Nov 8, 2014 11:40:18 GMT -6
Jon: I missed this post of yours for some reason until just now. Where are you in Northern Virginia? That was my home, Chantilly and Oakton, before I came west in 91. My daughter will be back there by spring from San Antonio, as my son in law is about to be transferred to the "Building" and then TDY at the National War College at McNair.
|
|
|
Post by montrose on Jan 16, 2015 7:27:31 GMT -6
Scar,
This thread is where we ask new posters to introduce themselves. I am curious as to your interest in LBH. It isn't mandatory, of course. But it helps other posters to shape responses to new guy questions.
I will start.
I am a disabled veteran. I was stuck in a Veteran's Administration hospital for a few months. A volunteer brought books to dull the boredom. I picked up Son of the Morning Star. Over those months I read that book at least 5 times cover to cover. When I got home I looked for more information online and discovered this board.
By the way, I get confused when people here call you SF. That is the abbreviation for my former job, so I keep thinking they mean me.
Respectfully,
William
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Jan 16, 2015 8:37:00 GMT -6
Well in that vein, my first interest came from "They Died With Their Boots ON". As a young person I could have been a Custer fan. As I began reading in the 70's, 80's, and 90's my perspective changed. I have found while obviously brave, he was a very flawed individual, much the same as Shakespeare's tragic hero's were. I did not read McMurtry until e-book two years ago, I found it sorely lacking.
I was in Foodservice sales(a sleeper of a different color), sales management for 2 fortune 100 companies. My military was confined to Air Force and Air National Guard.
Scar sorry for the hard time so far.
Regards, Tom
|
|