Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 15, 2006 12:59:09 GMT -6
The 1906 date probablty comes from Boots and Saddles At the Little Bighorn by James S. Hutchins. His footnote on the watch from the Foote collection, p. 73-74, states that it was bought from a Sioux in 1906, was lost in a dice game, exhibited in a travelling show, disappeared for a while and finally turned up in California perhaps in the 30's. The man who sold it to Foote bought it in the 40' s. Because it looked identical to the watch in "They Died With Their Boots On," I never believed it was authentic. I never read anywhere that the Michigan Brigade presented Custer with a watch. Custer led the charge at Gettysburg with the words, "Come on, you wolverines" not 'ride." When I read it turned up in California, I assumed it was a fugitive from the Warner Brothers property department. I'm sure if the people in Hollywood had a real watch of even something they copied from the genuine article, there would have been some publicity about it. rch
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 15, 2006 14:24:36 GMT -6
[/img] [/img][/quote] That rings a bell!!!! It was the Hutchins book they deleted the watch picture from when they found that it was not authentic. Not Son of the Morning Star, as I had previously stated! I've read so many books, it gets difficult to keep them separate!
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Apr 16, 2006 13:52:15 GMT -6
Note: "Wolfe" has removed his posts. Thanks for that clarification on what happened to half this thread, Diane! I note that, having deleted his original posts on this thread, the artist formerly known as 'Wolfe' has re-registered as 'Gary' and is now adding new posts. I don't know what his game is (he's also sent me a pm which isn't even worth commenting on), but its the kind of shennanigans which is currently undermining what was a forum of great integrity for like-minded enthusiasts. What a shame......... Ciao, GAC
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Post by Diane Merkel on Apr 16, 2006 22:56:23 GMT -6
People sometimes are all warm and fuzzy for us as long as they think we may validate their fondest wishes. I'm not saying that is the case here, but I remember the infamous hoof candlesticks and other such queries.
Please don't get disheartened, GAC. You know we need you!
Diane
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 17, 2006 5:20:21 GMT -6
Does anyone have any information about the Custer pocketwatch. It is possible that there is a piece of history here that could be added to the ongoing life of the Custer's!
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 17, 2006 5:27:37 GMT -6
People sometimes are all warm and fuzzy for us as long as they think we may validate their fondest wishes. I'm not saying that is the case here, but I remember the infamous hoof candlesticks and other such queries. Please don't get disheartened, GAC. You know we need you! Diane We plan on donating the watch to the Smithsonian museum if we can ever prove it's authenticity. The Smithsonian research staff have not been able to help with our research but are eager for us to solve the mystery of the watch.
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 17, 2006 13:34:37 GMT -6
In regards to more information about my watch, if you look back at the LBHA Newsletter, Oct. 1994, you will find a full description <<<<AND>>>> pictures of my watch. Further,,,,,, many of the LBHA members have seen and held my watch in their own hands! Museums all over the country have seen my watch and have helped in every way they can. The Smithsonian, "in their own words" have such a backlog of artifacts, "tens of thousands" they could not even begin to research this watch! I wish I could post pictures on this board but it is so difficult. It is probably not a good idea anyway, as there will be those that will likely copy this watch. (As they have the movie watch) I have already found one "documented" copy of my watch!
Thanks to all who are providing positive information! Please keep it coming!
Gary
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Post by Diane Merkel on Apr 17, 2006 23:00:10 GMT -6
Gary,
If you will give me permission, I can probably post the photo and info from that issue of the Newsletter. Not everyone on this board is an LBHA member, and even those who are may not have that issue.
Diane
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 18, 2006 5:19:05 GMT -6
Sure,,,, please do post the article and pictures!
Thanks,,,,,,,,,, Gary
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Post by Diane Merkel on Apr 18, 2006 10:05:35 GMT -6
Good! This will give me an excuse for a much needed break from writing computer lessons. I love my work, but it can get tedious at times. Here are the two photos of the pocket watch which were in the October 1994 LBHA Newsletter. Unfortunately, the second one shows a gold watch against a black background, which never works well, so I have lightened it a bit in hopes that it will display better. Following the photos is the text from the "Editor's News Bits and Briefs" by Don Schwarck. Information Requested Regarding GAC's Watch
An Elgin pocket watch bearing the inscription "To General Custer from the Michigan Brigade -- Ride You Wolverines" has been located and the owner is requesting information regarding possible authenticity. It is not the watch previously owned by the Foote family that appeared in the movie "They Died With Their Boots On." The back of the case has the name of the maker -- C.L. Thiery, patented Nov. 9. 1869 Jan. 18, 1870. Above the maker's name is an "all seeing" eye, like that found on the $1.00 bill, which may be a Masonic symbol. An eagle appears at 3 o'clock, perhaps indicating victory. A single star at 6 o'clock denotes the rank of brigadier general, and an Indian with an arrow pointing down at 9 o'clock possibly indicating defeat. Under the "Ride You Wolverines" inscription is a pair of inverted sabers. The owner states that this was the symbol used by Phil Sheridan to indicate The Army of the Potomac. The owner requests any information that might lead to verifying the authenticity of the watch. He specifically would like to know the significance of the "all seeing" eye. In addition, he would like someone to verify a source indicating whether Custer ever received such a watch from either Gen. Sheridan or the Michigan Brigade. Anyone with ANY information is requested to contact [name, address, and telephone number omitted]. Gary also states that the watch is presently secured in a safe deposit box and is not in his home.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Apr 18, 2006 10:24:58 GMT -6
I can tell one thing as a museum professional and not as a Custer historian (which I am not), and that is that it would be very unusual for an inscription of that period to merely say 'General Custer'. Most every inscription of that period (mid 19th century) would use the first two initials--far more common than even using a first name. Thus a genuine inscription would more likely read 'Gen. G.A. Custer'. I would be very suspicious of something that simply uses rank and only a last name. I am only basing this on the appearance of the artifact itself and having examined many, many 19th century inscriptions.
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Post by Tricia on Apr 18, 2006 10:43:59 GMT -6
The thing that throws me is the "Ride You Wolverines," when Custer's battle cry was "Come on, you Wolverines." The Michigan Brigade was known--right up until all its members had died--for even apeing GAC's red ties, so I'd have a hard time believing they'd consent to an engraving of something other than their general's exact words.
On a similiar vein, there was an interesting side note on last night's Antiques Roadshow[/i], filmed in Bismarck, ND ... a fellow had drawings and a watch built by a family member employed by Elgin watches. Perhaps the "seeing eye" was a hallmark of the individual artist?
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by Tricia on Apr 18, 2006 10:53:24 GMT -6
And a little more ... the casemaker's name is Charles L. Thiery, and from a quick search, the symbols of the eagle and Indian are "his" marks, so the imagery is not specific to the alleged Custer watch.
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 18, 2006 10:58:30 GMT -6
Leyton:
I also saw the Bismarck Roadshow with the Elgin Watch maker.
As a side note: I'm surprised there wasn't (isn't) much on frontier artifacts, either soldier, Indian, civilian from Bismarck.
I know there were several episodes taped in Bismarck so it was a little disappointing not seeing any Indian-Military artifacts.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Apr 18, 2006 11:03:17 GMT -6
Good research, Leyton. I was thinking that the Indian "with an arrow pointing down at 9 o'clock possibly indicating defeat" was a bit too prophetic to be real!
BTW -- I saw your e-mail and am not ignoring you! The last couple of days have been torturous. I'll answer everyone this afternoon.
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