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Post by harpskiddie on Jun 26, 2007 9:34:28 GMT -6
One of the problems for me with this particular story, aside from the fact that I have yet to see Flanagan's actual statement to anyone, is that there are several Indian stories relating the near escape of a trooper, or an officer, or an NCO, who finally shot himself, usually when it appeared that he had outdistanced his pursuers, or was shot by his pursuers.
It is possible to make a case for some of these to be a reference to Foley, but the question remains, as crzhrs asked, "Why did he shoot himself if he was in the clear and could see safety ahead?" It is also possible to make a case for the stories to relate to someone else entirely.
Gordie, we'll hold out as long as we have to, then we'll twist off each other's arms............................
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 26, 2007 9:41:16 GMT -6
One of our former posters, now banned, used Doerner's theory about rock cairns as "proof" of a high number of Indian kills, without noting "more study needs to be done".
His theory of the Flanagan account is another of those "selective history" accounts.
Mr. Doerner seems to be jumping to conclusions without all the facts.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion but as a NPS employee he should use better judgement before giving his
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Jun 26, 2007 9:49:45 GMT -6
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion but as a NPS employee he should use better judgement before giving his Quite.
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Post by westerner on Jun 26, 2007 10:13:51 GMT -6
One of our former posters, now banned, used Doerner's theory about rock cairns as "proof" of a high number of Indian kills, without noting "more study needs to be done". His theory of the Flanagan account is another of those "selective history" accounts. Mr. Doerner seems to be jumping to conclusions without all the facts. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion but as a NPS employee he should use better judgement before giving his It's a newspaper article, not something Doerner wrote and was in control of, and the direct quotes from him are few. The Flanagan story sounds like an old man's yarn that can't be taken seriously, but I can picture a reporter asking him if there are any stories about Foley's demise and Doerner tossing that out as something in the literature. The lack of direct quotes makes me suspect that the reporter isn't reliably distinguishing between "well, there's this story, and some such writer has suggested" and what is Doerner's considered opinion. I would not want to be judged by something a reporter paraphrased me as saying, is all I'm getting at.
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 26, 2007 10:53:06 GMT -6
While it is a newspaper article Doerner's statements do have direct quotes and the reporter follows up with Doerner "said" without quotes.
I think the gist of Doerner's theory is evident throughout the article.
And from another forum an opinion of the reporter by a knowledgable LBH poster:
Lorna Thackery is one of my favorite Gazette writers. Some of the history is not dead on, but it's good that the Gazette, the daily newspaper of the region that covers the Northern Plains War, including the LBH, takes note of this history.
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Post by westerner on Jun 26, 2007 11:13:21 GMT -6
While it is a newspaper article Doerner's statements do have direct quotes and the reporter follows up with Doerner "said" without quotes. I think the gist of Doerner's theory is evident throughout the article. These are the direct quotes. There are only 3 of them in a 23-paragraph article. "Maybe he was one of Custer's last messengers," "That must have given some forlorn hope to Custer's men on Last Stand Hill," he said. (regarding Boston being able to say that Benteen was back on the trail) "I'm not sure where Foley's remains are, whether they were reburied under the monument or if they're still here," he said. The only statement that can be lobbed at is the 2nd, because of Martin's differing accounts and the fact that one can't really know what Boston would have said, if he felt he had anything to say. But he is just repeating an idea that has been mainstream since Gray, and no one here commented on it. None of the Flanagan stuff, which is what he got criticized for, is his words. A "said" without quotes is just paraphrase, and for that reason I do not feel confident that Doerner, who surely knows much more about the battle than Lorna Thackeray, is being accurately represented.
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 26, 2007 11:19:59 GMT -6
OK . . . we agree to disagree.
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Post by westerner on Jun 26, 2007 11:20:00 GMT -6
And from another forum an opinion of the reporter by a knowledgable LBH poster: Lorna Thackery is one of my favorite Gazette writers. Some of the history is not dead on, but it's good that the Gazette, the daily newspaper of the region that covers the Northern Plains War, including the LBH, takes note of this history. I didn't see this edit in my crosspost. "Some of [her] history is not dead on"Pretty good reason to cut Doerner some slack unless we get it from the guy himself, I'd say.
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Jun 26, 2007 11:31:25 GMT -6
Your point about press misrepresentation in general is well made westerner. However, if Doerner has been as grossly misrepresented as you suggest then no doubt a letter from him making the appropriate corrections will be appearing in the pages of the Gazette once he sees how badly he's been misquoted. However, the headline of the piece and its coherent main thrust would tend to indicate that the reporter was pretty sure she was accurately reflecting what Doerner's views are........
ciao, GAC
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Post by westerner on Jun 26, 2007 11:51:54 GMT -6
Your point about press misrepresentation in general is well made westerner. However, if Doerner has been as grossly misrepresented as you suggest then no doubt a letter from him making the appropriate corrections will be appearing in the pages of the Gazette once he sees how badly he's been misquoted. However, the headline of the piece and its coherent main thrust would tend to indicate that the reporter was pretty sure she was accurately reflecting what Doerner's views are........ ciao, GAC All it really comes down to is "A man named Flanagan claimed to have seen ...." versus "Apparently, Flanagan saw ...." If Doerner doesn't believe the latter, hopefully he will correct it and be printed. The rest is just couched in ifs, possibles, maybes.
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kenny
Full Member
Posts: 156
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Post by kenny on Jun 26, 2007 20:15:35 GMT -6
If there were any trooper heading toward Weir hill, sent by Custer or some other officer that was still alive. None of the Officer's of Reno and Benteen command made any reports of it in their's statement.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 26, 2007 21:55:26 GMT -6
I believe the article was current and within the last couple of days. So Doener may not have had time to send a letter to editor.
Published on Monday, June 25, 2007. Last modified on 6/25/2007 at 12:14 am
AZ Ranger
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Post by harpskiddie on Jun 29, 2007 9:07:38 GMT -6
A little note regarding the finding of Foley's body. While digging through my rosters for another thread, I found this: "Stanislas Roy told Camp that Foley's was the first body his company found when they went to bury the bodies on the 28th: 'The first body we came to was that of Corpl. John Foley. I heard several say: "There lies Foley of C Company." I saw him and recognized him easily, as he had bald head and black hair. He was of middle age and I knew him well....'"
Foley had enlisted, according to my notes on 18 September 1873 at the stated age of 23, making him 26 at the time of the battle. The enlistment notes indicate that Foley had gray hair.
Gordie, ah yes, I remember it well..............................................
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Post by Scout on Jun 29, 2007 19:24:36 GMT -6
I believe Foley did come close to escaping with Nathan Short, Frank Finkel and Billy Heath. They made it, Foley didn't. Finkel and Heath did what any normal person would do... went straight home and never mentioned the incident again.
What if Foley had escaped? Jeez, the guy would've become one of the most famous people in American history. Could've become a general in later years...Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, etc. We are fantasizing here aren't we?
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jun 29, 2007 19:29:19 GMT -6
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