Custer's Last Messenger?

[crzhrs]

According to LBH Chief Historian John Doerner:

"Sgt. James Flanagan, who accompanied Weir, apparently saw a rider breaking away and heading in the direction of where Cpl. Foley's body was eventually found. Weir, looking through a field glass, may have seen something, too, but he died a few months after the battle, before he was able to keep his promise to Custer's widow to tell her all he knew of her husband's death.

Doerner said it would have been possible for Custer's battered force to have seen Weir's approach and to have believed that he was in striking distance for a rescue. Custer knew that Benteen and his three companies had returned from their scout and were on their way. Custer's brother Boston, a civilian employee with the 7th, had galloped away from Benteen's command and joined his brother just before the battle, Doerner said, and he would have told Custer that Benteen was near.

"That must have given some forlorn hope to Custer's men on Last Stand Hill," he said.

If someone on Last Stand Hill had seen troopers at Weir Point, it is logical that Foley, with his fast mount, would have been dispatched with a message, Doerner said. Foley's body was found about a mile from Weir's skirmish line."

_____________

Doerner's making a pretty strong statement about what could be seen from Weir Hill and possibly from LSH. And his theory of Foley possibly being a messenger is controversal also. Foley could just as well have been trying to escape.

[AZ Ranger]

Would the dust in the immediate vicinity of LSH prohibit such a viewing? I would guess there were a lot of soldiers looking for help before the end.

AZ Ranger

[George Armstrong Custer]

This is an interesting - though as you imply, controversial - bit of speculation from Doerner, crzhrs. As you say, if Flanagan's account is accepted, it would fit in with the location in which Foley's body was later found, as well as neatly tying in with the theory that he was making for men seen from LSH on Weir Point. And again, it also ties in with those who theorise that Foley, a corporal, was the more likely candidate to have been sent with a message than the traditionally cited Butler, a first sergeant. However, this also opens up the whole can of worms over the discrepancies between Lieutenant Godfrey's description of where Butler's body was found with Sergeant Roy's account of where Foley's lay - they coincide. The fact that Godfrey described coming across firstly Butler and then Foley in the vicinity of the rise above Deep Coulee, either of whom could have been making for troops seen with Weir, also gives ammunition for theories that more than one messenger or escapee from LSH went that route. If so, there is, on the face of it, strong circumstantial evidence to support Flanagan's claim of seeing a rider - which rider may also have seen Weir's force and headed in its direction. All plausible, but yet so tenuous that Doerner seems to be advocating it a little more strongly than the evidence will support. But maybe Doerner's purpose was to stir up a fresh debate over these theories - which I've no doubt it will. Such enquiries will also, of course, raise accusations of another conspiracy being hatched to blame the entire loss of Custer's command on Benteen and Reno............

ciao,
GAC

[AZ Ranger]

If they could see the men on Wier point would they all try to make it there or were they cursing that they had killed thier horses to use as breastwork. Another theory would be that it is only natural to head back in the direction you came from to seek support regardless of whether you saw them or not.

Is there any reason to doubt what Sgt. James Flanagan stated?

AZ Ranger

[AZ Ranger]

The Indians have accounts of Cpl. Foley committing suicide. If so I would find it less likely to believe he had seen troopers on Wier point.

What stunned the warriors was that they believed the soldier could have escaped. They even cheered him on, impressed by his bravery and the swiftness of his horse. Iron Hawk, an Hunkpapa, told the warriors to let the lone soldier go so that someone would be left alive to recount the Sioux and Cheyenne victory.

But as Foley's horse broke away from his last pursuer, the Company C trooper inexplicably drew his gun and shot himself in the head. He may have been the last to die that dusty summer afternoon.

The accounts differ in detail - Charles Corn, an Oglala, said the soldier shot himself in the jaw; Iron Hawk said Foley fired into his forehead - but there is unanimous agreement that he killed himself.

The trooper's last moments were commemorated in ledger art by Amos Bad Heart Bull, an Oglala who was 7 years old when he witnessed the battle. One panel in a three-panel series shows a soldier, pursued by warriors, putting a gun to his temple. Another depicts a warrior holding the soldier's captured horse while a second warrior shoots arrows into the body.

If they are putting a new marker for Cpl Foley on the battelfield are they removing one from some place else?

AZ Ranger

[bubbabod]

Regarding what could or not be seen from Weir to Calhoun and LSH, my friends did a little experiment when we were at the LBH week before last. This is an excerpt from the web site about our adventures, put together by our friend Treasuredude. It's a great site if you'd like to view it. Here's the excerpt:

"Thursday we slept in a bit. Then we headed back to the battlefield. An experiment on Weir Point. Fred and I climbed to the top while Michael and Max stood at Calhoun. We were armed with walkie-talkies and binoculars. A guidon thumbtacked to a broom handle was waved. Waving the guidon, we were able to be seen by the boys at Calhoun. We moved to the other peak at Weir and they moved down to Last Stand Hill. Again the guidon could be spotted. This was one of the trip highlights for me. I joined the CBPC in 2001 but this was the first time I had been on Weir Point."

You can visit this website below and view over 400 pictures taken by several of us that covers Custer's last trail beginning in Busby, the Crow's Nest, divide, morass, and on down to Ft. Phil Kearny for the Bozeman trail days:

pie.midco.net/treasuredude/MontanaMayhem.html

Many thanks to Treasuredude (Scott Nelson) for his outstanding work.

[bubbabod]

As a post script to my post above, granted there were no obstructions such as dust and gunpowder, but this was the result of their test.

[AZ Ranger]

Thanks for sharing. How was Fred?

AZ Ranger

[Jas. Watson]

That's a neat experiment. Was the guidon seen without binoculars or only with them?

Jas~

[harpskiddie]

bubbabod, and all:

I viewed the photos and notes the other day. Excellent stuff. The experiment was, as you point out, not really duplicating the conditions of 131 years ago. I have serious doubts that anything much could have been seen from Custer Hill, even had one been looking anxiously in the direction of Weir Point for assistance. From Calhoun, maybe......

The movement toward Weir Point by Custer's command was speculated upon by Kuhlman 50 years ago. It's nothing new, or startling, although the theory did raise a few eyebrows, apparently, when it was revived by one of the archaeologists 20 years ago .

Butler as messenger has had a long shelf life, as well, as has Foley [who as AZ points out allegedly took his own life]. Where does Doerner come up with the information that Foley had a fast horse, as opposed to anyone else, and what places Foley on Custer Hill? Or is this a matter of the conclusion leading the evidence, i.e. Foley must have been a messenger, therefore he must have come from Custer Hill, and he wouldn't have been sent unless he had a fast horse?

Dutch Hardorff places Foley much closer to the river than Butler [on his map, Custer Battle Casualties], and closer than the evidence he quotes [pp113-114] would indicate. There is an indirect reference to Flanagan in Walter Camp's notes, something along the lines of "if what Flanagan told me is correct," but Flanagan does not appear on the list of interviewees in Hammer's Custer in '76, nor have I been able to find Camp's interview notes for such an interview.

Gordie,
I'm too young to be where I'm goin' but I'm too old to go back again..........................................

[George Armstrong Custer]

As a matter of interest, crzhrs, when did Doerner make the comments you quoted, and in what context? What I mean is, was he making a specific issue of the Flanagan statement and it's possible implications, or was it buried in a more general discourse? I'm just trying to figure out the level of significance Doerner is trying to attach to the theory, which may be indicated by the context in which he's drawn attention to it.

ciao,
GAC

[crzhrs]

Here is the article about Doerner's "theory".

One puzzling thing, if Foley could see the Weir Advance and was heading toward it on a fast horse . . . why commit suicide?

Also Doerner is the one who theorized the 200 rock cairns are the spots where warriors were killed which would mean Custer's command inflicted far more casualties than anyone thought.

Seems Mr. Doerner likes stirring up hornet's nests.

Here's the article:

Foley's Last Ride
Corporal's dash from Last Stand Hill ends in suicide
By LORNA THACKERAY
Of The Gazette Staff

Little Bighorn Battlefield Chief Historian John Doerner has a theory about why the remains of Cpl. John Foley were found three-quarters of a mile away from Last Stand Hill.

"Maybe he was one of Custer's last messengers," the historian said recently as he pointed out the site near Medicine Tail ford on the Little Bighorn River.

The National Park Service has erected a marker on the rise where Foley died. The Veterans Administration provided a simple, white military headstone that matches more than 200 others on the battlefield.

For whatever reason, the site has not been marked before, although there are ample accounts of its whereabouts from soldiers who came to bury the dead on June 28, 1876, and from the Sioux and Cheyenne warriors who seemed fascinated by Foley's furious ride.

What stunned the warriors was that they believed the soldier could have escaped. They even cheered him on, impressed by his bravery and the swiftness of his horse. Iron Hawk, an Hunkpapa, told the warriors to let the lone soldier go so that someone would be left alive to recount the Sioux and Cheyenne victory.

But as Foley's horse broke away from his last pursuer, the Company C trooper inexplicably drew his gun and shot himself in the head. He may have been the last to die that dusty summer afternoon.

Foley was among the five companies under Custer's direct command. Company C probably was the first to be overrun, Doerner said, and the survivors, including Foley, struggled to Last Stand Hill, where Custer and what remained of his troops were desperately fighting for their lives.

Meanwhile, Benteen's command joined Reno's on the bluffs a few miles away. Capt. Thomas Weir, hearing heavy firing in the direction of Custer's march, headed toward the sound of the guns, apparently without permission from Reno. Other troopers climbed on their horses and followed.

But about two miles as the crow flies from Last Stand Hill, Weir's troops were confronted by swarms of Sioux and Cheyenne. They dismounted and fought a half-hour skirmish before retreating back to Reno's position on the bluffs.

Doerner said Sgt. James Flanagan, who accompanied Weir, apparently saw a rider breaking away and heading in the direction of where Foley's body was eventually found. Weir, looking through a field glass, may have seen something, too, but he died a few months after the battle, before he was able to keep his promise to Custer's widow to tell her all he knew of her husband's death.

Doerner said it would have been possible for Custer's battered force to have seen Weir's approach and to have believed that he was in striking distance for a rescue. Custer knew that Benteen and his three companies had returned from their scout and were on their way. Custer's brother Boston, a civilian employee with the 7th, had galloped away from Benteen's command and joined his brother just before the battle, Doerner said, and he would have told Custer that Benteen was near.

"That must have given some forlorn hope to Custer's men on Last Stand Hill," he said.

If someone on Last Stand Hill had seen troopers at Weir Point, it is logical that Foley, with his fast mount, would have been dispatched with a message, Doerner said. Foley's body was found about a mile from Weir's skirmish line.

"Had he continued his race for a little over another mile, he might have reached Reno's column," Lt. John G. Burke wrote later.

Warriors repeatedly commented on the speed of Foley's horse after he broke out of the death scene on the hill.

Turtle Rib, a Minniconjou who gave chase, said later, "The soldier rode like the wind and appeared to be getting away from us when he killed himself."

Corn remarked, "He could have lived because he was riding a very fast horse."

Red Feather, an Oglala, as recounted in Richard Hardoff's "Lakota Recollections," said: "The Indians took after him, and shot and shot at him, but could not catch him. They saw some smoke and the report of a gun, and saw him fall off his horse. The Indians went over and he had shot himself. Someone of the Hunkpapa band got the horse and tied him to a stake. Everyone went to look at it."

Foley's body was the first found by the burial detail from Reno Hill. He was recognized by several men and buried where he fell. The soldiers were not carrying shovels or other tools and scooped out shallow graves with whatever was available. Wind, water and scavengers soon robbed many of the bodies of their thin blanket of soil.

A year after the initial burials, when Lt. John Bourke visited the battlefield, Indian scouts pointed out the skeleton of the soldier who had made the dramatic escape that ended in suicide. Whether Bourke had time to cover the remains was not recorded.

In 1881, the bones of 220 soldiers who died in the battle were buried under a monument at Last Stand Hill. It's not clear that Foley's remains, so far from the main battlefield, were recovered and interred with the rest, Doerner said.

"I'm not sure where Foley's remains are, whether they were reburied under the monument or if they're still here," he said.

But on this 131st anniversary of the battle, a marker finally stands where he fell.
Published on Monday, June 25, 2007.
Last modified on 6/25/2007 at 12:14 am

[shatonska]

but there is also the indian account that low dog killed the raider , more possible that a senseless suicide , other saw the soldier fall and thought suicide but a distant shot could have killed him

from "where custer fell" to me it seems that Foley was the soldier found on slope nearer to the river with cases around him with Butler a bit further up in deep coulee , but it can be the contrary , it could be usefull to search around the place of the photo with Pohanka to find the bones and possibly cases

[Dark Cloud]

When did this heroic tale of Flanagan's first appear? Not when he said he wrote it down, when did it appear? Weir died the December following the June battle, so it's puzzling to see that duration be minimized as "few." If phrased "Weir died nearly a half year after the battle" the desired effect is lost. He had ample time to write it all down had he anything so important to say, and would in fact be so obligated. Did he allegedly see this from Weir Point? Or the later and lower ridge he advanced to?

Given the baseless assumptions at work here as Harpskiddie pointed out, it's iffy to the extreme.

[George Armstrong Custer]

Thanks for the full Doerner text, crzhrs. It's apparent that, from an historiographical point of view, Doerner's pyramid of speculations are built upon linking some verifiable facts with a single unverifiable statement from Flanagan. Tenuous to say the least, and really more the realm of the historical novelist than the historian. Without the insertion of the 'if's' 'may have's' 'could possibly' and 'must have's', I'm afraid Doerner's scenario has little more to contribute to the historical record than Thomas Berger's fiction. The one quality Doerner's statements do have beyond doubt is their ability to draw attention to Mr Doerner, and in that respect they are a masterstroke.

Speculatively, of course, some of Doerner's suggestions may be right on the money - but which, and who decides and on what basis? You might as well ask 'how long is a piece of string?' I don't know, but maybe the length this thread eventually runs to speculating on Doerner's speculations will give some idea...........

ciao,
GAC