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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 20, 2007 7:56:58 GMT -6
Also, Martin's descriptions of riding through the village, et al. The message made small sense anyway, but in aggregate with that, almost none.
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 20, 2007 8:27:51 GMT -6
The message did not specify any danger, fighting, "hot time" or anything else that would indicate major fighting.
Kanipe & Martini both gave the impression that Custer was about to ride through the village and gain a victory.
I believe Edgerly stated that Martini also said Reno was killing Indians left and right.
The Cooke message was too vague and cryptic and left Benteen with having to make an "executive decision" about going back for the packs or continuing onward. Fortunately for Reno anyway he continued on.
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 20, 2007 8:33:34 GMT -6
It was said Custer while on the Crow's Nest stated he could not see any village. I think Varnum also stated he could not see the village due to lack of sleep and tired eyes as the reason. Did the Crows actually see tepees or just smoke rising from camp fires. Someone did say to look for "worms" (the huge horse herd).
It seems Custer wasn't convinced about a village, even when some of his scouts said there was a village there. It wasn't until he got back to the command and was told one of the packs got loose and Indians found it, plus the Crows saying he better attack first before the Sioux do that he felt there was a village up ahead. Still there was no definate location other than in the LBH valley.
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Post by harpskiddie on Jun 20, 2007 8:55:41 GMT -6
dc:
In your reply #8 above, you have written "Custer is known to have waited, dallied, arranged saddles, before heading down MTC an hour after Reno'd made his advance."
Could you please give me your source(s) for this information, or is it simply "generally accepted?"
Gordie, you gotta walk your feet in the sunshine, baby. Do it every day...............................................
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 20, 2007 9:12:13 GMT -6
Gray, Martin, Curly, Curtis, Kanipe and elsewhere. Without looking anything up, Custer is reported to have been seen waving, the Crow scouts said he watched Reno take a beating, Curly and Martin said the command stopped for a while, and again in MTC to adjust saddles before tearing off down towards the village, and he kept an earlier "dust suppressing walk" for his advance to supposedly support Reno. The firing had to be audible from across the river.
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Post by harpskiddie on Jun 20, 2007 10:26:54 GMT -6
But not Martin from the RCOI, right? It must be Martin from the Cavalry Journal [in Graham] where he also says he met Boston and blah blah. That was the point I wanted to make, if indeed there was one. I knew where you got it. None of it from the RCOI or before.
Gordie, one more day in Colorado.................................................................................................
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Post by harpskiddie on Jun 20, 2007 10:42:01 GMT -6
Curtis seems to be the only one to whom the Crows [or whichever one it was] said that they could actually see the camps and the white tipis. If they could, then they were not where where they were when Reno attacked down the valley, since you can't see that area from the Crow's Nest. You might see smoke rising, and you could certainly see vast horse herds out on the benches to the south and west [directions approximate], depending upon the atmospheric conditions.
Assuming it was the location of the Crow's Nest "rediscovered" by Henry Weibert and the subject of the well-known photos. When I was there in 1960, I hadn't known that it was "lost" - I supposed everyone knew where it was [of course, I didn't until taken there, but I didn't know much at all about LBH then].
The description fits, definitely; but that kind of assumption has proven to be a big mistake, when it comes to locations and else. There is not, however, ANY point in the area of the Crow's Nest from which the actual camps location can be seen.
Gordie, did you know that the ship, the Chesapeake, which was the subject of the famous "Don't Give Up The Ship" admonition, was given up only a few minutes later?.....................
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 20, 2007 11:34:48 GMT -6
"But not Martin from the RCOI, right? It must be Martin from the Cavalry Journal [in Graham] where he also says he met Boston and blah blah. That was the point I wanted to make, if indeed there was one. I knew where you got it. None of it from the RCOI or before."
DeRudio and others brought out the wave at the RCOI and 'Custer's' presence on Weir Point or other bluff while in the timber and previous, so he was not moving to the attack at that point while Reno was engaged. But true, most if not all appeared after RCOI. And the person to whom I was discussing it with isn't supporting my recomendations in that regard (nobody is, by the way), so just pointing out the inconsistencies by their accepted standards.
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Post by mwkeogh on Jun 20, 2007 17:11:00 GMT -6
It was said Custer while on the Crow's Nest stated he could not see any village. I think Varnum also stated he could not see the village due to lack of sleep and tired eyes as the reason. Did the Crows actually see tepees or just smoke rising from camp fires. Someone did say to look for "worms" (the huge horse herd). It seems Custer wasn't convinced about a village, even when some of his scouts said there was a village there. It wasn't until he got back to the command and was told one of the packs got loose and Indians found it, plus the Crows saying he better attack first before the Sioux do that he felt there was a village up ahead. Still there was no definate location other than in the LBH valley. Although GAC could not see the village, he is reported to have said that he believed the scouts had indeed located it in the valley just ahead. His original plan was to hide his command that day and send out scouts to locate the exact position and size of the village, then move his command up during the night and position them for an attack on the village at dawn. None of these preparations would have been made had GAC not been convinced that the village was just ahead of them in the valley as his scouts initially reported.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 20, 2007 21:08:14 GMT -6
keogh Whether he saw the village or not he didn't want to expose a whole regiment moving in daylight to the Indians. Either way his plan to that point I believe was good.
AZ Ranger
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Post by George Mabry on Jun 20, 2007 22:05:39 GMT -6
Good one Gordie
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Post by wild on Jun 21, 2007 14:20:54 GMT -6
The "bringing of the packs"does not require Benteen to acompany the packs.Notification to the pack commander of what Custer required and tactical responsibility for the packs was all that was necessary. I have asked this question before if Reno did not exsist where would Benteen have gone?He was not ordered to attack but to come on and bring the packs.The answer has got to be to Custer. Benteen's meeting with Reno was pure chance.Why would a subcommander join his battalion to another battalion and embark on a series of maneouvers totally independent of HQ? It makes no sense.
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dcary
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by dcary on Jun 21, 2007 15:20:51 GMT -6
I agree Benteen does not have to accompany the packs. I believe Benteen knew the content of Kanipe's message for the train, even though McDougall and Mathey said it never reached them, so he would assume the train was notified.
Where Benteen went (as it was) was in the same general direction as Custer, then to the sound of firing, whom he may indeed have thought was Custer, until his discussion with Reno. Had Reno not been where he was, it is certainly possible Benteen might have headed toward Reno in the trees, since he almost certainly didn't know of the division of command, made after he left on the scout. Had Reno not existed (or been with Custer) toward Custer -- he would head for the nearest Cav unit, without being able to tell who was who.
Either of these halts for Reno would slow him down somewhat even if Reno was OK. But what he found was Reno in a strange state of mind, Moylan crying, McIntosh, Hodgson and others dead, wounded people and an atmosphere of defeat and confusion. I say it makes eminent sense to join them at that point; it was not terribly long after that the Benteen force started for Custer again, precipitated by Weir and Edgerly. The fact that Benteen himself did not precipitate this move, does not mean he might not have done it a short time later.
If one insists that the note meant, above all else, "join Custer" -- and not 'get to where you're available' -- then Reno's positioning and circumstances are, in effect, a red herring in Benteen's path. I think a major mistake of GAC's was no not notify Benteen of the Reno attack plan when the orders were given to Reno.
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Post by George Mabry on Jun 21, 2007 15:20:59 GMT -6
Wild,
View the Come On note in the circumstances in which it was received. They were all trying to locate the Indian village and they were going to attack it. A note arrives that says “come on big village…”. Nothing ambigious about it. Benteen has been ordered “to the village” which is essentially, “the fight”. Custer’s purpose behind the note was to get Benteen battalion involved in the fight.
I agree with you that the note does not require Benteen to accompany the packs but a note addressed to Benteen with the words “bring paks” does require him to take some action. That portion of his orders could have been fulfilled by ensuring that McDougall was moving as rapidly as he could. I also do not believe that “paks” referred to ammo backs only.
I also agree with you that the meeting of Reno’s command on the bluffs was pure coincidental. I’m 51% sure that had Benteen not seen Reno people on the bluffs, he would have crossed the river at Ford A. Once Benteen crosses, what next? When Benteen sees Reno holding out in the woods with the Indians swarming, what does he do? Does he charge the Indians, enter the woods and join Reno in establishing a defensive position? What about the train? It’s still several miles back and doesn’t have a clue (an accurate one anyway) as to what is happening in front of them. Assume the train reaches Ford A unmolested and crosses over, when McDougall sees Reno and Benteen defending the woods with the Indians swarming, what does he do? Can he charge too? I doubt it. Shoot the mules and hunker down? Maybe. What does happen?
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Post by mwkeogh on Jun 21, 2007 18:45:31 GMT -6
Good points here George. I pretty much agree with your proposed Benteen movements, however, if we do assume that Kanipe was sent as a messenger to the pack train, the message sent was clear. Cut straight across country as soon as possible. The message was not to continue following the trail (Reno's trail) down into the valley, but rather to follow GAC's trail staying to the high ground. My thought on it is that the pack train would have gone ahead to the vicinity of either Sharpshooter Ridge or Weir Point following the Custer trail and then assess the situation on whether on not to proceed any further. Once there--on either height--they would have been in full view of all the other detachments on the field. It would be up to HQ then to decide what to do about them next.
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