Sergt. Kanipe: messenger, straggler, or skulker?

[Jas. Watson]

Reading some of the comments on the 'Bring Pacs' thread--and other places--I am really wondering just what Sergt. Kanipe's REAL role in the thing was. I know scattered all about in quite a number of threads here there are various theories, opinions, and knowlege regarding what he did--or didn't do.
Just why DID he ride back to the pack train? He apparently didn't deliver a mesage...or did he?

Jas~

[wild]

I believe he was genuine.All the circumstances and timing fit and he had no idea Custer & CO would be wiped out.I mean his story was only going to hold up until the command was reunited.

[Diane Merkel]

Skulker!

[crzhrs]

If Kanipe was "deserting" from Custer he was taking a big chance with saying he was delivering a message. If Custer et al survived and Kanipe ended up out of the fight he would have a lotta 'splainin to do. Maybe he thought the risk was worth taking to be alive with your hair on than dead and chopped up.

Now it's his word against dead men . . .

[wild]

Maybe he thought the risk was worth taking to be alive with your hair on than dead and chopped up.
Was Custer not given to shooting deserters>

[crzhrs]

By 1876 that may not have been in vogue . . . especially after what he went through in 1867.

Would Kanipe have taken that chance by saying he was a messenger only to have Custer et al survive and being brought up on charges of desertion?

I don't have any reference books with me right now, but did Kanipe say at the time he was delivering his message who ordered him to? Did he say to Benteen or Mathey that Capt. (Tom) Custer ordered me to report and deliver this?

[BrokenSword]

I too believe that Knipe was on the level. Several messengers went back and forth in those final hours. Martini was the only one I have heard of that carried a written message, and THAT because of his English skill level at that time in his life.

With events breaking fast, it wasn't desireable to have messengers standing around while someone wrote down what could more quickly be delivered by the spoken word. The suprising thing to me is that Martini was choosen to relay a message in the first place.

Most of the messengers seem to have also been told to, "Return here if its safe to do so," or words to that effect, and perhaps Knipe chose a more conservative interpretation of that last instruction to him.

Then again, maybe he stayed with the pack train because that was where all the coffee was stored.

Michael

[mcaryf]

If he was not a messenger he ought to have been.

Custer had to give some direction to the pack train as to where he wanted it to go.

One of the civilian packers mentioned that a sergeant came back to hurry them.

McDougall and Mathey are somewhat evasive about getting a message but it certainly looks as if they went in the general direction that was intended i.e. not after Reno's trail.

I am,however, quite prepared to beleive that Kanipe forgot to give a specific message to Benteen and had become flustered after Benteen told him the pack train was nothing to do with him.

Regards

Mike

[Diane Merkel]

Vern Smalley made a convincing argument for the Kanipe story being a myth in the October LBHA Newsletter.

[fred]

Jas.--

I believe Kanipe was as phony as a three-dollar bill. First of all, there is no question he went back and talked w/ Benteen. I don't believe that is an issue. Second, both Mathey and McDougall denied getting a message from any sergeant... or they certainly denied it in the earlier years. My question here would be, who do you believe, a sergeant like Kanipe or two officers? Besides, what would it have sounded like if Mathey and McDougall reported to Custer, "Here we are general, just as ordered." "Ordered by who?"

Next. If the packs were supposedly to cut cross country, how come they didn't? They went close to the river, then cut north.

Next. I don't believe Kanipe claimed to be carrying a "message" from anyone until after he knew Custer had been killed. If Custer had survived, Kanipe could very easily have claimed his horse gave out, he had to make his way back to Benteen or the packs because he couldn't keep up, and as an NCO he took it upon himself to let people know they should be hurrying, and that might especially apply to the packs.

Next. Why would Custer/Cooke send back a sergeant instead of the myriad strikers, orderlies, clerks, jerks, and gorgons the column was loaded with. He had access to McIlhargey and Mitchell, yet he chooses an NCO from a line company, and sergeant, a commodity in short enough supply. Martini was told to try to return to the column. How about Kanipe? Goldin, when he claimed to be carrying a message from Cooke to Reno, said he was told to try and return. How about Kanipe? Why a sergeant w/ a simple enough message: "Hurry!" Are you kidding me?! If all these little tidbits of incompetence were the norm that day, you know something? Those guys got everything they deserved. If you mix this story w/ Bruce Liddic's convoluted tactical maneuvering at Ford B; w/ the marvelous idea of panic setting in immediately after Custer was killed at Ford B; then stir in a drop of Benteen doggin' it because he hated Custer; add a little jigger of Reno's "drunkenness" being the cause of the debacle in the bottoms; a pony or two or three or four of conspiracy at the RCOI, and poof!, what do you have? A two-hour, Jackie Gleason/Milton Berle mixed comedy routine.

And you can't use Sharrow and Voss as examples of NCOs bearing gifts, because they were sent to Benteen-- who was in sight the whole time!-- to change the man's mission and then they returned to the command. How about Kanipe? Where was his effort to return?

Next. Where was Kanipe when after he supposedly delivered the message to Mathey and/or McDougall? No one in the pack train claimed he joined that column. A civilian packer remembered seeing a sergeant telling people to hurry. So what? Did he tell those in charge--McDougall and Mathey-- to hurry, or just some civilians and privates? "Git along now, boys!" No one in Benteen's column ever reported Kanipe joining that group. The guy probably rode somewhere between the two columns, shall we say, keeping his powder dry and his options open?

Nope, to me, Daniel Kanipe was an opportunist and not much of a hero of the LBH. He saw too much trouble ahead and decided early on he wanted nothing to do w/ it. The o-o-o-o-ld tired horse trick worked every time. If we can't believe Goldin, Korn, Brennan and Watson, why should we believe Kanipe?

Best wishes,
Fred.

[elisabeth]

Good stuff, Fred. You've almost got me convinced ...

What did Kanipe do once he got to Reno Hill? His heroics -- pointing out Indians, carrying message -- all take place before that; we hear nothing of him gallantly joining in the Weir Point advance, nor of him taking NCO-type responsibilities during the siege, as far as I can recall. He vanishes. That's a further argument in favour of skulking, I'd say.

I'd still like to know more about the alleged hearings at Fort Lincoln when they all returned. All we know is that Korn was examined and cleared; but he can't have been the only one whose case was looked into. Posibly Kanipe was investigated too? Frustrating to think that those records may still exist somewhere -- National Archives, perhaps? -- and no-one's yet dug them out ...

[fred]

elisabeth said:

What did Kanipe do once he got to Reno Hill? His heroics -- pointing out Indians, carrying message -- all take place before that; we hear nothing of him gallantly joining in the Weir Point advance, nor of him taking NCO-type responsibilities during the siege, as far as I can recall. He vanishes. That's a further argument in favour of skulking, I'd say.

Very good point, Elisabeth. I hadn't thought of that, but you are absolutely correct.

Best wishes,
Fred.

elisabeth said:

I'd still like to know more about the alleged hearings at Fort Lincoln when they all returned. All we know is that Korn was examined and cleared; but he can't have been the only one whose case was looked into. Posibly Kanipe was investigated too? Frustrating to think that those records may still exist somewhere -- National Archives, perhaps? -- and no-one's yet dug them out ...

O-o-h, Billy!

[mcaryf]

Hi Fred

Whilst you have some good arguments as to why Kanipe might not have been a messenger I still come back to the point that Custer ought to have sent one at that time to the packs.

I will also point out again that the train does turn right rather than left at the splitting of Custer and Reno's trail. This is evidenced by both McDougall hearing the Custer volleys on his right i.e. he is travelling West of North to Reno Hill and Varnum says the packs come in from a different direction as compared with Benteen. I think Benteen comes towards the Reno escape ford on the west slope of Reno Hill whilst the packs come on the East slope. This suggests that Kanipe may have had some influence.

Mathey and McDougall have some reason to dissemble at the RCOI as they delayed for 20 crucial minutes fetching a platoon of McDougall's escort to the front. If Mathey had pressed on to Reno Hill he could have got there 20 - 30 minutes earlier. It could be argued, although I would not personally agree, that an earlier arrival of the train frees Benteen to move towards Custer earlier than he did. Hence the motive for Mathey not to say he had been told to hurry. His previous operating order was not to kick up dust, i.e. not hurry. Mathey and McDougall would probably never have known for sure whether that 20 - 30 minute delay was critical, in practice it wasn't.

Regards

Mike

[fred]

Mike--

I don't agree with you regarding the necessity of ordering the packs forward at that particular time. I see no military reason for it, especially since a "certified" messenger (Martini) was sent back several minutes later: 3:15pm versus 3:34pm, Gray's analysis.

I am also aware the packs took a slightly different route than Benteen. Benteen traveled closer to the bluffs and was seen by both the hostiles and DeRudio as he moved along the edge. I am certain the packs moved at slightly more of an angle.

I think denial by McDougall and Mathey would be less dissembling than outright lying, and I cannot pin that on two decent officers and at the same time let Kanipe off the hook when there seems to be so much more fishiness to his story than a simple denial by two officers. You will have to excuse me here, but my dander begins rising again when I keep hearing about these big, bad, privileged, lying, SOB officers (and I know those are not your words, Mike, so please, don't take offense at my ire), and the poor, misunderstood, everyday, "little" guys. Quite frankly, the well-informed, educated, well-mannered, well-brought up men ring a little truer in my brain than some guy content to be a private, a day-laborer, or a dirt farmer. (Boy, that oughta make me some friends! You have to live down here to get the full appreciation of what I mean. And I know there are exceptions to the rule, but my mother always taught me to continually raise the bar, not try to slide under it.)

The Benteen, timing issue is a whole 'nother matter which I don't believe plays into this particular issue.

One other thing. No one seems willing to tackle the business about the critical MOS: the sergeant, a vital component of any military, playing such a menial role as messenger, especially since there were so many other bodies to choose from. Were McIlhargey and Mitchell returned to Company I, or did they stay as "orderlies" w/ Custer? Why yank someone from a line company? Why wasn't Martin sent back then, as first choice? He was sent back 19 minutes later. How did Custer know he would need to send a message back at that time?

Nan, nah, nah! I hate to say this, but I think people accept Kanipe because he feeds their theories, not because what he said bears any resemblance to reality. Sorry, everyone, but I am just about as firm in my convictions regarding this mendacious rapscallion as I am about anything regarding the LBH. This guy lied and he was a-- shall we say it-- coward? He bugged out.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[elisabeth]

Playing devil's advocate: I've read somewhere the argument that the "across country" part of the alleged message might help explain using a sergeant -- that if his role was to pathfind a route by which the packs should come, not just carry a message, it would take someone higher up the evolutionary scale than a mere orderly. And Kanipe must have thought the story would convince, as he suggests it's another sergeant, Finckle, who would have been sent in his place if his horse hadn't dropped back ...

Perhaps one of the biggest holes in the story is the involvement of Tom Custer in this. From all previous and later form, it'd be a fair guess that he'd be riding with the HQ party, leaving Harrington to take care of his troop. In which case (a) Kanipe's claim to have been riding close to him seems improbable, and (b) if he was with HQ, it would have been far more logical for him to choose someone close at hand -- e.g. an orderly -- than go to the trouble of finding someone from his own troop.