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Post by mcaryf on Mar 23, 2007 9:23:51 GMT -6
Hi Fred
You ask why a messenger should be sent at 3.15pm rather than 3.34pm to tell the packs which way to go. 3.15 is pretty well 3 hours since the command set off from the Divide. The distance to the trail separation from the Divide is 11.25 miles. The packs have averaged 3 mph during the campaign and they left a bit after Custer. Thus 3.15pm is about the latest you can send a messenger back to the packs and expect he might get there before they have to decide which way to go. In practice the packs set off later and went slower than Custer might have expected but 3.15 was a more appropriate time than 3,.34.
McDougall actually said that he thought Mathey got the message so their combined evidence was not a straight denial.
Finally is it not only with hindsight that we know turning back was the safer option? As it is you have him, as a coward, riding on his own through country that could well contain hostile bands to join up with the packs who might well be regarded as a prime target by the warriors.
Regards
Mike
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2007 9:57:16 GMT -6
You ask why a messenger should be sent at 3.15pm rather than 3.34pm to tell the packs which way to go. 3.15 is pretty well 3 hours since the command set off from the Divide. The distance to the trail separation from the Divide is 11.25 miles. The packs have averaged 3 mph during the campaign and they left a bit after Custer. Thus 3.15pm is about the latest you can send a messenger back to the packs and expect he might get there before they have to decide which way to go. In practice the packs set off later and went slower than Custer might have expected but 3.15 was a more appropriate time than 3,.34... Finally is it not only with hindsight that we know turning back was the safer option? As it is you have him, as a coward, riding on his own through country that could well contain hostile bands to join up with the packs who might well be regarded as a prime target by the warriors. Ah, c'mon, Mike! You are much better than this! You're rationalizing this whole affair and you have done too much good work to allow this kind of flimsy rationale into the whole argument. First of all, there was so much dust from these columns that Custer had to know from whatever heights he was on, the approximate location of both Benteen and the packs. How many times did Cooke have to go back to warn Mathey about the dust? And while I'm sure Mathey took corrective action, please don't tell me all the dust plumes were eliminated. While the business w/ mileages and distance and time-motion studies is great for writers, researchers, archaeologists, anthropologists, historians, and people like us, I am rather sure Custer couldn't have cared less and certainly wasn't looking at his watch, calculating numbers. This wasn't rocket telemetry, this was, "move yer ass, buddy, we got a lotta trouble up ahead."As for Kanipe riding "through country that could well contain hostile bands," the bum just rode that way and if you stand atop Reno Hill, you can see forever. What would you rather do, ride back along the route you just traveled-- w/ no Indians in view-- and where you can see Benteen's dust, Mathey's dust, and a clear ride, or risk a jaunt into the teeth of perdition? It's the same thing w/ Kanipe's self-important statement about seeing 100 Indians to the north. "Oh, look at me, boys! It was my spotting of all those Indians that turned Custer to the north! Ain't I somethin' grand!" This guy's just too fantastic for words. "Daniel Kanipe, Custer's Own Voice of Battle at the Little Big Horn."I'm sorry, Michael. But boy, oh boy, would I love to hash this stuff out with you in one of your magnificent pubs. Man! would you and I have a great time of it, or what? Very best wishes, Fred.
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dcary
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by dcary on Mar 23, 2007 10:37:05 GMT -6
Fred -- going along with your idea is the fact that Benteen calimed Kanipe had orders for the pack train only. Maybe that was all he said to Benteen, and that would certainly not encourage Benteen to ask who sent him, etc.
On the other hand Kanipe brought the idea that "we've got them" and that victory was at hand. Would he say that if he didn't actually believe it -- and if he believed it, why bug out?
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2007 10:47:04 GMT -6
On the other hand Kanipe brought the idea that "we've got them" and that victory was at hand. Would he say that if he didn't actually believe it -- and if he believed it, why bug out? dcary-- That's an excellent point regarding Benteen. Good one! As for the excerpt, above, it makes no difference, if you are scared and afraid of being killed. Besides, why wouldn't he make it up? Even if he believed it, he was wrong. To me, some of the proof to this pudding is the fact no one ever knew of him joining the Benteen column or the packs. I believe the guy rode between the two, just to see where the safest place would eventually turn out to be. Do you think for one second, Kanipe would have ridden w/ Benteen had our good captain decided to charge down the valley, a la Marcus Reno? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by clw on Mar 23, 2007 10:54:08 GMT -6
Hey! That would be me, the SW Florida farmer. I reread Kanipe's account last night and it certainly has the feeling that something isn't right. When was this account of Kanipe's first heard? It's not clear in the reading I've done. Why wasn't Kanipe asked to testify at the ROCI? I sure would like to know more about what went on at the Ft Lincoln hearings too.
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 23, 2007 11:13:07 GMT -6
In Kanipe's 1924 story he stated:
"Reaching the pack train, I gave Captain McDougall the orders sent him, and went on toward Captain Benteen as I had been told to take them to him, also . . ."
Didn't he say Cooke told him IF he saw Benteen to tell him also?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 23, 2007 11:36:32 GMT -6
I am not sure the "C" word is appropriate because I don't enough facts but certainly not wanting to engage at the least may be appropriate. The fact that a person exposes themselves to danger while fleeing certain death doesn't mean they are not acting cowardly on the other.
The disappearing and maybe holding a position between Benteen and the packs and no further active engagement noted would make me suspect.
I have seen two instances where I believe cowardice was the issue. Once while being shot at by kids on the Verde River and my reserve was down behind the front tire of my truck convulsing. The other where an officer had to issue a citation to a subject but then found out the subject had a shotgun in his room and backed off between two groups of friendly officers. He stood there and just looked in the direction of subjects location. He never told anyone what he knew and later believed he had done something else. Neither position was any safer but they didn't have to deal with the immediate known threat.
AZ Ranger
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Post by wild on Mar 23, 2007 14:20:04 GMT -6
Before accusing a man of desertion in the face of the enemy the evidence should be a tad stronger than the grassy knoll variety. The evidence presented so far is entirely circumstantial and for my money weaker than the evidence which would support his claim. Martin's written message with the emphases on "bring packs"is exactly what would follow a first message and a deteriorating situation. The time at which Kanipe left was not as Fred has argued [hope I'm not doing you an injustice Fred]a time of crisis.Did Kanipe know something Custer did not? As regard sending an NCO I have always wondered at the practice of using troopers as runners.As was seen with Martin troopers don't know their arse from their elbows.Benteen got nothing out of Martin regarding the tactical situation.An NCO would have had a much better grasp of the situation. The instructions Kanipe says he was carrying have a ring of authenticity about them particulary the advice to cut across country.This could only have come from HQ who would have been paying attention to the navagation of the march.The ranks would have had little sense of direction,lay of the land,orientation etc. Benteen suspected nothing. As regards Mathey guess who was in charge of the pack train at the Washita?i don't have to paint a picture do I? Kanipe approached Benteen's column a the gallop so that rules out straggler and fits the role of messenger so Kanipe had to have his story set from the moment he left Custer and not as some have suggested after the battle. Far too much circumstantial evidence in his favour to rule against him. Hurrah.
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2007 14:29:40 GMT -6
CLW--
That crack was not directed at you, believe me. From what I have read so far, you are as far removed from that bit of snide commentary as a person can be. That's why people like you don't belong here: you give the place a good name and sucker fools like me down here. If I told you my daily stories of the things befalling us, you'd either have me committed or you would die of laughter.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2007 14:56:05 GMT -6
Wild--
I think you are off base here. First of all, I never suggested Kanipe was sent back during a "time of crisis." Quite the contrary; ergo, why the sudden need for the packs? What is w/ all this emphasis so many people put on these damn packs? They were fighting Indians, not Wal-Mart. If anything-- and if he needed it at this time-- Custer would need additional men. Men, men, men!!! Not packs. You fight with men, not hardtack.
As for this "sergeant" or "NCO" business... men get those stripes because they have exhibited a certain proficiency in their jobs; a certain intelligence, a certain wile, a certain ability to lead, and on and on. They don't get the stripes because they've been there the longest or because the supply room has an abundance of yellow bunting. It is usually a position earned. You need sergeants and corporals to control other men; to lead other men; to handle situations as they arise. You don't use them as messengers or as horse-holders, probably the lamest thing I have ever read on these boards. A sergeant holding 4 horses, well behind the action. Oh, that's brilliant! I am sorry, but anyone suggesting such foolishness is simply unaware of what the military is for or is supposed to do.
Here's another one. Wild, you say that the other ranks would have little sense of direction, lay of the land, orientation, etc. So that means we should rule out the testimony of these other ranks regarding almost anything to do w/ the LBH, i.e, number of Indians, time the fighting began, what Custer said or didn't say, how long they were on the skirmish line, where the skirmish line was, and so on. A "other ranker" wouldn't be able to follow a trail, right? He wouldn't know north from east, right? Then why did Reno send McIlhargey and Mitchell? Why would Cooke have sent Martini. even with a written note?
As for Kanipe galloping instead of walking his horse, first of all, I never claimed he was a straggler. He never claimed he was a straggler. A galloping horse would fit his alibi, not his excuse.
My whole point is really very simple: Daniel Kanipe got a case of the shivers. He decided he wanted nothing to do with the big fight looming up ahead. So he decided to fall out, always able to use a tired, worn-out horse as an excuse if someone in his column questioned him. Once he fell aside-- as several others did, or were about to do-- he concocted a story that would preclude him from being a laughingstock-- or worse-- and he saw dust plumes in the distance, gathered in his reins and when Custer's column was far enough ahead, he turned and hightailed it back to the lead "dust" column. That proved to be the ultra-acerbic Benteen, maybe not Kanipe's first choice.
Anything else, to me, is strictly wishful thinking.
And here's another thing that peeves my butt a little bit. We fling the "coward" word at the drop of a hat when it comes to people like Reno and Benteen, but we're loathe to do it when it comes to that poor, misunderstood, underdog, the enlisted man. There's all this altruistic understanding of the poor scared private, all this empathy for the poor bastard hiding in the bushes, but when it comes to an officer, then that's a whole different story. Officers aren't flesh and blood, officers don't care about their men, only about their reputations and comforts. I am sitting here, thumbing through a book I have, a book about the living recipients of the Congressional Medal of Honor. There are 52 officers and 64 enlisted men in that group. Most of those who receive the CMH, die in their heroism. I wouldn't think the percentage changes. The enlisted personnel under my command accomplished the missions for me, but if they hadn't, it would have been my butt that swung. My job was to ensure they did, so that makes me the ogre. But if I (or another officer) hadn't been the leader, none of those missions would have been successful.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 23, 2007 15:22:02 GMT -6
Hi Fred
I do not think that it was/is possible to see dust clouds from Reno Hill at the Morass which is where the pack train was at 3.15pm whether you beleive my timeline or John Gray's.
First there are bluffs in the way that obscure the view from Reno Hill and second the Morass would be an area of damp ground not likely to generate dust.
I do not beleive that Custer or anybody in his party would have been likely to see dust from Benteen or the packs before Custer went up Weir Point by which time Benteen and the packs would have rounded the white bluffs on the Reno Creek trail. This is consistent with the Martini message to Benteen being sent at that time because Custer then has an idea that Benteen is back on the trail.
The story Kanipe told in 1922 can be largely discounted as he was old and probably dying at the time.
On Reno Hill during the 26th Kanipe was stationed with Benteen's company H so he was on the most exposed part of the position throughout that day.
I really see insufficient evidence to justify branding him a coward. Benteen was not backward at noting the failings in Lt Gibson, so one must assume Kanipe joined in the charge Co H made, certainly Benteen did not mention that he did not and Kanipe says he was orderly Sgt. so would be a noticeable absentee. He later accompanied Benteen to examine the bodies of Custer's command which helps show that he was effectively allocated to Benteen and Kanipe also reports that he went forward with Co H in the Weir Point advance.
Regards
Mike
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2007 15:33:52 GMT -6
Mike--
You're begging the point here. The pack train was strung out for three miles. How long do you think it might have taken for the whole thing to be corralled at the morass?
As for Kanipe's "heroics" at Reno Hill, you wouldn't think Benteen's immediate presence wouldn't drum a little barroom bravado in the man now would you?
This is a black-white issue, no gray for much discussion. It's not like the unknowns of Custer's maneuvers. You guys believe what you will, but I truly think you are all kidding yourselves. Kanipe's tales are really grasping at straws.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2007 16:10:54 GMT -6
Mike, I'm sorry; I forgot to add this on my previous post. Those bluffs to the north of Ash/Reno Creek are not high enough to obscure the dust plumes. If those clowns could see the smoke rising from the Indian campfires, all the way from the Crow's Nest at that early morning hour, then anyone could have seen the long, dissipating dust clouds made by columns along Reno Creek, especially on a hot, June day, at noon or thereabouts. We're not talking about the K-2 Massif here.
Also, neither Sharpshooters' Ridge nor Weir Peaks is that much higher than Reno Hill. Again, it is only about a 100 foot difference.
I have some good pictures of both directions taken from just about where Kanipe claimed to have left the column. If I knew how to post them on this site, I would. That might give you a better perspective.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 23, 2007 16:20:44 GMT -6
Hi Fred
The entire 3 miles you are talking about along Reno Creek is obscured from Reno Hill by a line of bluffs typically 300 feet above the level of the trail below them. I am by no means an expert on dust (AZ Ranger where are you) but I would be surprised if the cloud went up well over 300 feet on a still day and even if it did there would be some difficulty in working out what it actually meant vis a vis Benteen or the packs. I think it has to be either from Weir or Sharpshooters that Custer would have a meaningful view and of course Kanipe does not go that far. It is not the height of Weir that makes the difference but the better angle of view because in that 20 minutes Benteen and the packs would have come out from the lee of the bluffs as the direction of Reno Creek swings slightly more to the North.
Regards
Mike
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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 23, 2007 16:30:25 GMT -6
Wow, I didn't expect my question to generate quite this much conversation. But it IS a question that has bothered me for a long time. However, on one point I have to strongly disagree with Fred: >>I believe Kanipe was as phony as a three-dollar bill. << because I have several perfectly legitimate three dollar banknotes in my collection of 19th century stuff--they had them then. Other than that Fred, you make just the case I would have made right down to the vamping up his horse when Benteen hove into sight. I think he would have been a straggler or a messenger depending on the circumstances. I don't think the 'discretion better than valor' falling out was at all uncommon then. Just sort of hang back until you see which way the wind blows in the thing. Sure, no one could know the future, but old soldiers can certainly guess when the stuff will hit the fan bad...just as the "Nathan Short" horse on the Rosbud almost certainly represented an earlier deserter, and of Brennan's actually bragging about how he slipped out. Sometimes old soldiers know when it's time to slide. And a Sergt. could certainly pull it off easier--I've seen that sort of thing successfuly done by sergeants in my own time. I don't think Kanipe was neccesarily a craven coward, but I do think he was being a bit of an opportunist here and was definitely ready to slip into either role depending on what happened. If Custer or some of his officers came back and ever questioned him he would say, I heard so & so (preferably some one who was dead) send me back to hurry the packs or whatever. Something vague and it would have been chalked up as perhaps a misunderstanding or something--or maybe 'my horse made me so slow so I used initiative to go on back and hurry the packs'. or some such. And even if worse came to worse and he lost his stripes over it (really more like just a repramand would be more like it) it might still be worth it than to take a chance with a GAC with the wind up. In this case of real doubt I would say we'd have to examine the rest of the man's record. If the guy was a crack soldier fearless in other engagements I would certainly give him the benefit of the doubt here, but if he really doesn't shine--or worse, has other shall we say...questionable performances, then we can pretty much satisfy ourselves in this manner. Besides he got the girl in the end. Jas~
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