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Post by wild on Mar 23, 2007 17:00:13 GMT -6
The time at which Kanipe left was not as Fred has argued a time of crisis. Sorry Fred if I had worded it thus -----The time at which Kanipe left was not a time of crisis as Fred has argued.
Custer had 120 rounds of ammo per man.Enough ammo for one hours fighting.15 minutes after Kanipe has departed he is screaming for ammo again.Benteen also saw the need for the safe arrival of the ammo and set his pace to conform with that of the pack train. A regards the rank of messengers the Brits used junior officers in this role.This was not a platoon exercise but a relatively large scale action which called for precise clear communications.The idea of entrusting a vital communication to a ranker is dicing with disaster.
Here's another one. Wild, you say that the other ranks would have little sense of direction, lay of the land, orientation, etc. They were being led over complex terrain, an undulating broken monotonous landscape of twisting coulees and rivers.They were on more intimate terms with the butt of the horse in front than they were with their surroundings.The reference to cutting across country could only have come from HQ.
Then why did Reno send McIlhargey and Mitchell? Why would Cooke have sent Martini. even with a written note? Ablindman could retrace the trail of 200 horses.
The scenario you paint of Kanipe's motivation ,desertion and cover story is without evidence to back it up. Hurrah
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2007 17:29:01 GMT -6
Jas--
You know something, Herr Watson? That was as good, as clear, as rational, as intelligent, and as reasonable a post as I have ever read. I will accept your rationale as 100% perfect. If I called him a coward, I retract it. "Opportunist" will be my new word. I believe it was an intentional act, but I will accept what you say, virtually to the letter.
A doff of the hat to you. Beautifully done!
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2007 17:37:40 GMT -6
The scenario you paint of Kanipe's motivation ,desertion and cover story is without evidence to back it up. And where, my friend, is the flash point that tells you, "Aha! This man is for real!"? As for the Brits using junior lieutenants... well, these guys flew the American flag. Again, I reiterate, sergeants are too important to use as mere messengers, especially in a non-dire, almost administrative function as this particular one. And, c'mon, Wild! Cut me some slack here. This terrain was nothing. Please! Again, if I knew how to post pictures I would put up a couple showing you exactly where he would have had to travel. My mother could roll down Reno/Benteen Hill and reach Benteen's route of march w/ no trouble. Don't throw up obstacles where none are needed. I loved Jas. Watson's post and I will retract anything I said about Kanipe's bravery-- or lack thereof-- but I will stick to my guns when I call him an opportunist. Best wishes, Risteard, Fred. Huzzah, my friend! Keep 'em smiling!
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Post by wild on Mar 23, 2007 18:11:25 GMT -6
And where, my friend, is the flash point that tells you, "Aha! This man is for real!"? No flash Fred just a sense of fairness and if he was with Benteen's troop then he was in the thick of the fighting on Reno Hill not sculking with the packs .There is just not a shred of evidence against him. See ya
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2007 18:31:41 GMT -6
... if he was with Benteen's troop then he was in the thick of the fighting on Reno Hill not sculking with the packs. The question is, Was he? Says who? Benteen? I don't think so. Plus, Benteen may not have known Kanipe from Adam. Kanipe was a C Company sergeant who had less than 4 years service, so obviously less than that as an NCO, a rank officers might note, so they could know the man. But H Company was stationed at Fort Rice; I don't believe C was. As a matter of fact, I am certain C was at Fort Seward, about 100 miles from FAL. So how might Benteen get to know Kanipe? There were malingerers during that June 26th charge. How do we know Kanipe wasn't back there trying to "spur on" the bums? Believe me, I am not the most well-versed person on these boards when it comes to having read all the books available, but Bruce Liddic does a yeoman's job of the 26th & I don't think he mentioned Kanipe once. Kanipe didn't show up on Benteen's "list" of heroes, either, and regardless of what you might think of Fred Benteen's decisions those days, the man knew bravery. I simply go back to one of my original comments regarding this thread. I believe the willingness to accept Kanipe at face value has more to do w/ fitting things into personal theories than anything to do w/ reality. If we believed some of the officers, i.e., Carlo DeRudio, as quickly as we are willing to believe Daniel Kanipe, we may be getting on to something. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 24, 2007 1:00:16 GMT -6
Hi Fred if you want an officer's comments this is what McDougall had to say about Kanipe in a later reference he gave him: I have the honor to most cheerfully recommend Daniel Kanipe, late Sergeant Troop C, 7th US Cavalry, for any position of an honorable character. Sergeant Kanipe is an honest, sober, trustworthy man, that always did his duty well, gaining the entire respect of the officers of his regiment, as also the enlisted men. I cannot too highly recommend him for any position of trust that may be given him, knowing that he will perform all duties well that are entrusted to him, with honesty, faithfulness, courage and loyalty to those who employ him. ... This soldier's record is good all through, and I gladly recommend him for any position he may seek. ... His ... hard service entitle him to great consideration." I found this quote on this web site about Kanipe: www.mohicanpress.com/battles/ba04004.htmlOne other piece of information from there, he spent most of the rest of his working life with the IRS - perhaps that is why some authors do not like him! One final comment Co C did not seem to be short of Sergeants, in the roster in Custer in 76 they seem to have had 6 in addition to the first Sergeant whereas most other companies have 4 or 5. Regards Mike
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Post by fred on Mar 24, 2007 1:58:10 GMT -6
One other piece of information from there, he spent most of the rest of his working life with the IRS - perhaps that is why some authors do not like him! Mike-- Well, you may be right about that!I am aware of that McDougall comment, but it too is as suspect as almost anything else regarding this whole affair, and as much as I like McDougall and think he was a decent and honest fellow, I don't put much stock in that quote. It is rather like the Goldin pandering to Benteen. McDougall probably knew no more of Kanipe than Benteen of Goldin. Your point is well taken, but again, that recommendation has less to do w/ Kanipe's adventures before June 26, than what might have happened later. You can make an awful lot of noise to be noticed when surrounded by 300+ men on a hilltop-- dare I use the term, "amid relative safety"?-- than when faced by the prospect of venturing into the lion's den. Best regards Mike, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 24, 2007 2:15:14 GMT -6
Custer had 120 rounds of ammo per man.Enough ammo for one hours fighting.15 minutes after Kanipe has departed he is screaming for ammo again. Benteen also saw the need for the safe arrival of the ammo and set his pace to conform with that of the pack train. Sorry, Wild; I meant to address this issue earlier. You are making a wild (no pun intended) assumption here, again, based on your reading of the theoretical. You are assuming Custer called for the packs, per se, rather than the men. And you use the word "again," assuming there was a first time, thereby accepting Kanipe's tale. If we delete Kanipe's nonsense, then Martini's mission becomes the "first time" and Custer has still not fired off a single round, is on the move, with time to neither sequester the packs nor fiddle w/ divvying up more ammunition. That then, goes right back to the other argument of, "why the packs," irrelevant to this discussion. I am sorry, my friend, I just cannot buy the Kanipe adventures, not a bit of it. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Mar 24, 2007 4:16:47 GMT -6
Hi Fred Is it the man or is it the action with which you have trouble?Is it that a messenger from Custer at that stage with such a message is unblievable?I mean if Martin had a verbal message and had departed at the time Kanipe departed would you believe it. The secret to successful straggling lies in straggling away from the action.Kanipe's alleged straggling was at the time not away from th action but towards it.A firefight was in progress just off the route back to the packs.That straggling route was not secure and was to see Martin fired upon a short time later and of course Benteen stopped.You do not straggle in noman's land.
You can make an awful lot of noise to be noticed when surrounded by 300+ men on a hilltop-- dare I use the term, "amid relative safety"?-- than when faced by the prospect of venturing into the lion's den. The above addressed to Mike but permit me to put my oar in.No you may not use the term "relative safety".The casualties suffered on Reno hill were very serious and at a level only sustainable in the direst of circumstances. The only offence Kanipe is guilty of is surviving.Suspicision always falls on the survivors. Slan
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 24, 2007 7:12:26 GMT -6
Hi Fred
I do not know if McDougall knew Kanipe outside the army but he would not have known him much more within it as he left a year after LBH with a reference as a sergeant of excellent character.
I should not be surprised if his leaving was his new wife's doing as she probably did not want to be widowed twice!
The other thing to note about him was that he became a sergeant after only 4 years' service. Would not this suggest that he was quite a high flier in terms of speed of promotion?
Regards
Mike
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 24, 2007 8:48:24 GMT -6
I am by no means an expert on dust (AZ Ranger where are you) but I would be surprised if the cloud went up well over 300 feet on a still day and even if it did there would be some difficulty in working out what it actually meant vis a vis Benteen or the packs.
I wouldn't claim to be an expert but more of a specialist on dust observations. I just finished my 28th year March 19 and have had lots time making observations and using them to take action. In northern Arizona especially in the last 10 years of drought we have lots of dust made by various conditions.
The first part of the question as I see it is could dust rise 300 feet on a warm dry at 3:00 in the afternoon. I believe it could. There could be a thermal effect at that time of day helping to lift the air. Would it be of sufficient density to make a determination of direction of travel. I don't know. I would think that it not being windy would help to see the dust rather than lesson the chance of observation. Also the time of day is a plus. I watched a young bald eagle learn about thermals over a slag heap outside of Clarkdale, AZ. He would fly toward it and get a 30 to 50 lift as he reached the thermal uplifting. He tried it several times which I believe was his discovery of the thermal effect.
When looking for our buffalo in Yeager Canyon in July we did see the dust above the canyon. It did have close to the same depth being over 200 feet. This would have been approximately 80 head of buffalo running.
So as in true LBH discussions there is no clear finding of fact. It could be considered "consistent with" which means it could not be ruled out.
AZ Ranger
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Post by fred on Mar 24, 2007 12:25:32 GMT -6
Is it the man or is it the action with which you have trouble? Is it that a messenger from Custer at that stage with such a message is unblievable? I mean if Martin had a verbal message and had departed at the time Kanipe departed would you believe it... ... No you may not use the term "relative safety".The casualties suffered on Reno hill were very serious and at a level only sustainable in the direst of circumstances. Wild-- I have no trouble w/ Kanipe as a "person." I also have no real trouble at that point w/ a message being sent back for the packs. I think it was rather early, but since I wasn't there, I cannot quibble w/ Custer's decision if that is what he wanted. I don't believe it was, however, because he would have sent back a proper messenger, the messenger would have reported to McDougall and/or Mathey, and the messenger would have led them the way they should have come, as quickly as they could have reached a point to cut cross-country. That didn't happen. And it didn't happen because Kanipe never reported to either officer and he didn't report because he didn't want to go back to Custer's command.I do not have a specific problem w/ Kanipe, other than the fact he lied through his teeth. As for Reno Hill, I have decided I can use the term "relative safety." Your reasoning here is way off. If you were going to leave Custer's command and seek safety, where would you go? Would you wander around the countryside where you know various groups of Indians were? I don't know of any sharp skirmish that occurred before Reno charged down the valley, but if there had been, it would be all the more reason for Kanipe to seek the "relative safety" of Benteen's command and/or the packs or the combined force. The fact that there was trouble on Reno Hill came after the fact and it was a hell of a lot less trouble than what Kanipe may have expected Custer to meet. He was afraid to be w/ Custer's command, so he left and joined someone else he thought would provide him w/ better safety. There is not a lot more to it than that. That and the fact Kanipe had no idea of Reno's problems when he "straggled." So for all he knew he would be in the "relative safety" of Reno, Benteen, and McDougall's commands while Custer did all the heavy work downstream. If you were going to bug out, where would you rather be? It certainly wouldn't be off in the countryside somewhere. Also, please stop using tomorrow's knowledge today. I do not know if McDougall knew Kanipe outside the army but he would not have known him much more within it as he left a year after LBH with a reference as a sergeant of excellent character... The other thing to note about him was that he became a sergeant after only 4 years' service. Would not this suggest that he was quite a high flier in terms of speed of promotion? Mike-- Of course he left the service w/ that plaudit. No one knew he pulled a quick one. And I am not doubting Kanipe's ability, not at all. So being promoted to sergeant within a 4-year time frame is fine. Again, to me, Kanipe sized up the situation and decided he wanted none of it. He concocted a story that would and could appease whoever he ran into or whoever survived. I am sure "stragglers" raised a lot of eyebrows in the 1876 army, especially when it occurred close to or near battle-time. Best wishes to you both, Fred.
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Post by wild on Mar 24, 2007 15:17:39 GMT -6
Hi Fred Skill at story telling does not turn fiction into fact. The entire regiment was going into action.Kanipe could avoid it only until the the packs came into contact with the enemy and the price of this delay was a dangerious straggle in noman's land.At the point where Kanipe fell out of line there was no indication that a disaster was about to befall Custer's column.No reason to run other than a desire to avoid action even the most onesided skirmish. On Reno Hill the defenders suffered [Benteen troops only]11 dead 21 wounded.I dont have the figures for the other units but that ment a helluva lot of incoming.There is no evidence that Kanipe did not do his duty.I really don't think a hunch is sufficent to back up the accusation. Slan
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Post by fred on Mar 24, 2007 18:59:48 GMT -6
There is no evidence that Kanipe did not do his duty. I really don't think a hunch is sufficent to back up the accusation. Wild-- Hunch? Hunch? You have to be kidding. This isn't a hunch. It is a solid, reasonable argument based on good, circumstantial evidence. You won't believe the word of officers like Benteen or Reno or McDougall or Mathey, but you believe Kanipe. Kanipe, of the "phantom 100." This is the guy who supposedly saw 100 Indians near Reno Hill and that event is what caused Custer to head north instead of supporting Reno. The 100 that only Kanipe saw; the 100 no one can account for; the 100 that disappeared, poof!, into thin air. And don't give me this "straggling in no man's land" jazz. Who are you kidding? Reno Hill is a spit away from Reno Creek, 8 companies of cavalry just traversed all or part of that route, he knew his way back, he could see dust in the distance. Besides, you keep begging the question about the battle. I never said Kanipe presaged doom; he was simply afraid to get into that upcoming fight and he sought the easiest way out. As it turned out, he found it didn't he? You can't have it both ways. Kanipe had no way of knowing of Custer's big brou-ha-ha, yet Kanipe's a hero because he chose to stay on Reno Hill. C'mon, Wild, your whole reasoning process is a little too skewed here. None of it makes any sense. It is what it is, not what you choose to make of it. You choose Kanipe's word at complete face value, yet all those officers are liars and charlatans. I can no longer deal with that. Sorry. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 25, 2007 5:30:08 GMT -6
Hi Fred
I think the true role of Kanipe is one we will never know for sure, personally I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt when I am not sure. Certainly in my judgement Custer should have been sending a messenger to the packs at that time. We also know from Indian accounts there were at least some Indians on the bluffs even if it was not the 65 -70 Kanipe states. I agree with Elisabeth that the idea that he came from Tom Custer is not a strong point, the only thin argument in favour might be that Tom thought it should have been done and preferred to do it himself rather than raise with GAC. Do we know when Kanipe started to tell the "it was Tom" story and to whom?
If Kanipe was not a real messenger from GAC then it adds a slight nuance to the Martini message as this would then be the only message sent back relating to the packs and could explain the added PS emphasis as Cooke realises that no message has yet gone.
Despite this I shall prefer to beleive Kanipe as a genuine messenger although I understand why you do not think this.
Regards
Mike
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