Custer never sent for Packs

[Tony]

dc--if Custer was truly leading a retreat, why was company "C,L,andI" left behind at Calhoun Hill? Would not have all companies been at LSH, if the retreat was halted there? Or, did Custer just do as Reno did---get the hell out of there without even making sure that all commands heard his order to retreat, and as a result left 3 companies behind?

[Dark Cloud]

I don't know. I don't know, or care, that it happened as I suggested. I only point out the evidence as it exists supports that offering as much as anyone's.

There's nothing particularly startling about all five moving north along Battle Ridge with increasing numbers flensed off to protect their 'rear' when the front hits the wall at LSH. Or three, with the remaining two running up from MTCF.

But the fact is Custer is nearly the furthest body from the village. He was not in the midst of a defensive group, as the stones suggest today. Further, his adjutant and one brother are by him, and other officers. The guys on the big Kentucky horses that might make better time up the hill. That is by testimony and photos which, by the way, show wooden markers down the road to Keogh, which aren't reflected today.

Again. If Reno and Custer's commands were reversed, and Reno died on LSH and Custer survived down south, it could all be spun - and would all be spun - as poor, deranged Reno flailed about and got walloped, taking innocent, young, peach fuzz soldiers to grisly death, while Heroic Custer - the Decider, and making the Tough Decisions - peeled out of there when his experience told him incompetent Reno wasn't going to support him as he'd been ordered and had promised - promised! - he would in a timely manner. Wasn't pretty, but it worked, which is all that counts, right? Right. Hero. Yeah, some slowpokes somehow didn't get the word or notice the sounds of over a hundred mounting up, and somehow some horseholders knew but the guy standing next to them did not, but it's war and that's what happens.

Snort. Some think Reno was WAITING for help! An American cavalry officer, and it must be coincidence his body was FURTHEST FROM THE VILLAGE like they were RUNNING AWAY, but of course I'd NEVER suggest that to you, Libby dear.....

[Tony]

DC--the name is Tony--not Libby dear---and I know not where you have come to the decision that I am pro Custer or would defend him to the death. I believe in much eariler post you may see that I have admitted that Custer ---for a lack of a better word--may have screwed up on several occaisoins that faithful day.
Your theory of a retrat has merrit, but if I recall there were many warrior accounts that asserted that the companies on Calhoun were fighting at the same time Custer was on LSH. I just find it difficult to see the retreat with 3 companies still fighting it out on Calhoun and in the Keogh sector. If Custer was really retreating, I would think that the bulk of the command would be right with him or hot on his heels. Yes a regaurd action may have been deployed, but not in the areas where the dead were found. It did not indicate a rear guard action--However, I may be wrong--see I can admit to that---appreciate your post--Benteen dear!

[Dark Cloud]

Um. No, that was just a parody of Custer's spin, who would have survived in the offered scenario, in the July 4 letter to his wife as the other survivors did in reality.

Please don't elevate a technical possibility to "my" theory. It's only possible. And none of the offered scenarios deals with an explanation for the bodies as found. Or described found. They'll levitate in glee getting to discuss particular desecrations but avoid like a live grenade the positioning of Custer to his immediate command.

[Tony]

DC--your possibility has me thinking, I must admitt. But, just so I understand, your saying that the position of Custer's body (furthest from the village) may indicate that Custer was attempting to retreat North or East. I would like to hear your take on "C,L,I, and why then were they found where they where?

[wild]

but avoid like a live grenade the positioning of Custer to his immediate command.
The position of Custer's body would indicate that he was not directing a defence line.A centeral position would be expected if he was.Very much like he was in motion towards LSH with the command strung out behind him.Nor does it look like a panic run towards LSH more like the column coming to a sudden halt with fragments breaking away towards Deep Ravine.

[harpskiddie]

Custer's body was not found where it was interred. His body was found on top of the knob approximately where the monument stands today. There was no road when the wooden markers were replaced, although when the road was built some markers were displaced, and a few have been displaced since then.

Since there are 50 odd spurious markers on the field, one cannot draw too specific inferences from their placement as to tactics or events. LSH may or may have been the "last stand" [the 'Foley' position may have been the end of the action]. The Deep Ravine scenario has never had one shred of proof - no bones , no artifacts, no nothing except anecdotal evidence which could pertain to several different locations.

Somewhere I had asked if anyone had bothered to read the words on the original Keogh marker. Here's another invitation to do so.

Gordie

[crzhrs]

And remember the location of where bodies were found may not have been the location of where they were killed and/or wounded. After the battle Indians were all over the field moving bodies to get at clothing, weapons, jewelry, etc. Some may have been "positioned" for target practice, rolled down hills, dragged behind horses, etc.

[wild]

Somewhere I had asked if anyone had bothered to read the words on the original Keogh marker. Here's another invitation to do so.

[wild]

Somewhere I had asked if anyone had bothered to read the words on the original Keogh marker. Here's another invitation to do so.

Col Keogh
and 38
Soldiers
of
Co I 7 Cav
KILLED
Here
June 25
1876

And the point is?

[Dark Cloud]

Again, insofar as I have a theory at all, it isn't original or complicated.

All five started down MTC, as would be logical. He's supporting Reno, hitting the village/going for the civvies by shortest route, whatever. They are rebuffed/Custer or a Custer relative is hurt. Regardless of else, family kicks in and, needing to keep moving, they are diverted north looking to where temp safety lies and they can get organized and whoever cared for.

The back two or three companies, too far back to know what's actually going on, avoid a pile up or whatever forced the change of direction and retreat/re-direct to Calhoun Hill, providing covering fire as needed, in visual but not vocal contact. They are followed and assailed, unable to get totally organized, and - like Reno - Custer or whoever is leading an advance/retreat into the unknown. His position isn't viewed as safer, and the first to the LSH crest get nailed by concealed fire, they're blunted and stopped. Keogh never knows what's going on, soldiers from Calhoun Hill, already overrun, may be continuing on to LSH, or vice versa, and Company C is all over the map. I don't think it took long at all, and at the end it was a complete panic and collapse.

I suspect the victors in the clothing and on the mounts of the losers are solely responsible for the artifacts and Indian tales of soldiers far north. They fooled their own women and Weir that afternoon, and everyone the next day meeting Terry, at least for a while. No reason to think they didn't fool many through the dust, including other Indians who never knew who they were and have provided accounts, directly or not.

Zippo proof but plausible given the evidence, the Custer known to history, the nepotistic 7th, and bodies as found.

The original Keogh marker pre-1879? Don't know. The 1879 photo shows a wooden horror just saying Keogh and 38 of I company killed there. What's the issue?

[PhillyBlair]

yeah, but.......

There is overwhelming and consistent Indian testimony of two distinct wings working independently.

There is Indian testimony and archaeological evidence of a move to, and firing from, Cemetery Ridge. So LSH may not have been the farthest point of advance.

There is consistent Indian testimony of a charge from LSH to Deep Ravine.

With the initial Indian forces coming from the MTF area it is logical to assume the defensive worked backward from there, and later became more untenable as warriors came from other directions. LSH (just my opinion) seems to present a good rallying point for headquarters and would have overlooked the defensive positions while overseeing a move toward the river to gather hostages (or find a safer place to cross). I agree that it didn't last long after it fell apart, but I'm not sure we should read too much into Custer's body being the most distant from the village. You may be right, and I'm not sure your opinion is any worse than the standard fare we've all been reading the past 20 years. But it's also not the only option, as you stated. All the theories have holes, which is why we all keep talking to each other every day while our spouses think we're weird.

[Dark Cloud]

"There is overwhelming and consistent Indian testimony of two distinct wings working independently." There is no Indian testimony whatsoever. I've given imperfect examples of how Sioux language works, and it's tough to translate accurately. We don't even have first hand accounts, since none of the warriors could speak or write English.

"There is Indian testimony and archaeological evidence of a move to, and firing from, Cemetery Ridge. So LSH may not have been the farthest point of advance." There is no Indian testimony whatsoever PLUS all archaeology can do is prove an item manufactured before a certain date was found on the field. When, at who, by who is an utter, complete guess.

"There is consistent Indian testimony of a charge from LSH to Deep Ravine." There is no Indian testimony whatsoever PLUS they did not use current geographic names. There are stories of men running away towards the river who hit a ravine and were killed in it.

[PhillyBlair]

Under your definition of reliable testimony, what can we use? You've thrown out 100% of the Indian testimony -- the only eyewitnesses. You've thrown out archeology, even when it matches Indian testimony.

What's left? Perhaps someone should have interviewed frogs who witnessed the battle from the banks of the Bighorn?

[Dark Cloud]

It would be nice if it were testimony, and it would be nice if we could tell more from archaeology than it can possibly deliver, but it isn't and we can't. It's not MY fault, but you have to stop pretending to scientific evidence and eye witness testimony and take it for what it is: items whose presence where found isn't in conflict with various, mutually exclusive theories, and stories that come to us by roads we really, really do not know in languages we don't speak through people with agendas and protective concerns and all that before worrying about elderly confusion, liars, idiots, and the gullible. It's about on the level of convicting someone by testimony given via interpretive dance.