Custer never sent for Packs

[Tony]

I have just posted a statement on "Reno's Report" thread in a hurry just before going to dinner. But the more I thought about it the more invaluable I believe it is to Custer's "plan" So, I will post it again, under this new post.
What if Custer never mentioned the packs when he sent Martini back to find Benteen. Here's my thoughts on this matter:
The only message Custer sends is for Benteen to hurry his butt up here because Custer now sees an enormous village that he wants to attack immediately. He turns to Cooke and asserts something like "tell Benteen to get his ass up here on the double. Where going to attack this village now. Cooke who realizes that Custer is close to "mad" and knows that this "lunitic" is about to attack a village 4 times what anyone thought it was and is bitting off more than he can chew. Cooke doesn't know wheather to crap or go blind and is starting to panic. He realizes that Custer fails to mention the packs and decides that they will be needed and adds to Custers message thinking that in his (Custer)rush to attack, Custer forgot to mention the packs.
BUT, in reality Custer knows that the packs will only slow Benteen down and realizes that he doesn't even need the packs. He was nowhere near a defensive mode, nor was he concerned at this point about the safty of the packs. After all, Reno was keeping the warrior force busy, but Custer now realized that there are many more warriors in the village then he originally though, and only needs additonal men to attack---the packs would only be an impediment to him at this stage. So, Custer never mentiones the packs, because he doesn't need them. It is only Cooks afterthought that makes him (Cooke) mention the packs on his own. Maybe he was just trying to re-enforce Tom Custers earlier message via Kanipe, or maybe it was just Cooks own realization that the packs will soon be needed. Thus the P.S. in the message (a sign of someone who is excited and in one hell of a hurry)--Anyway, this answers many questions as to why Custer would send for the packs--answer is "He never did" This one addition from Cooke who thought he was doing a good thing and assisting his commander who he thought forgot to mention the packs, and who really though the packs would be needed, resulted in nothing but confusion for Benteen and historians all through the years. How about this one!!!!

[Diane Merkel]

tonypag1 said:

. . . Thus the P.S. in the message (a sign of someone who is excited and in one hell of a hurry)--Anyway, this answers many questions as to why Custer would send for the packs--answer is "He never did" This one addition from Cooke who thought he was doing a good thing and assisting his commander who he thought forgot to mention the packs, and who really though the packs would be needed, resulted in nothing but confusion for Benteen and historians all through the years. How about this one!!!!

One of the problems with your theory is that the mention of the packs was not just in the postscript. It was in the body of the message as well.

[PhillyBlair]

Yes, and what very few people realize is that the words "defensive strategy" were removed by the rip in the original letter. If it wouldn't be for that darned hole my theory wouldn't be so hard to prove! Why did Benteen have to remove those words in his translation?

[Diane Merkel]

That brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "hole in the theory."

Benteen also put the P.S. above Cooke's signature in the translation, so that evil villain obviously wanted to muck things up. He probably did it just so we'd be sitting here 130 years later talking about him. And people think Custer had an ego!

[AZ Ranger]

It appears to me that the spelling of pack may not be pacs like so many say. Unless Cooke can't spell his own name also the k in his name appears like what is at the end in pacs. He doesn't lift the pen from the c to whatever that is but he is not pressing it to form an s either. He does the same thing in the c in the quick above it.

I would have to agree with Benteen's translation of that word. I see pack not pacs.

AZ Ranger

[mcaryf]

I think there is the germ of an idea here. If Custer was requesting a single pack then obviously it must be his own. Perhaps it contained his dress uniform so he could accept the surrender of Sitting Bull whilst suitably attired!

Tony if your idea was a serious suggestion you would also need to deal with Martini's statements re what Custer had also told him.

Regards

Mike

[PhillyBlair]

Of course a soldier's "pack" was where he kept his stash of food as well. We know that Libbie sent a cake along with them, so perhaps Custer had been saving it for a special occasion? Or maybe he was just hungry?

[Dark Cloud]

You own a copy of Thoughts of Libby, don't you, Tony?

There is no germ of an idea, here. It's the germ of Custerphilia which, once entrenched, requires organ transplant; drugs can't reach it. Of all the ridiculously convoluted attempts to prove Custer made no error, was always on the offensive, and had an actually relevant plan, this attempt to blame Cooke might take Calhoun's cake.

Ten minutes earlier, TWC had sent for the packs, supposedly by C's order.

[AZ Ranger]

I don't it is Cooke signature either.

It an abbreviation for Custer HeadQuarters Wants Coors beer.

C Q W Coor be.

[Tony]

Look people---the reason for this post was not to blame or exonerate anyone here. It was merely an attempt to suggest that it may have been possible that Cooke did not write exactly what Custer may have said---and if that occurred, then over the years historians may have misunderstood the actual order.
I have read other post where many people suggested that Kanipe's order came form Tom and not Custer-- that was debatable---who knows for sure. But if that were fact, than why is it so far fetched that the order to bring packs was an afterthought of Cooke's and not Custers actual words. In the circumstances surronding the written order, it just may be possible that Cooke was excited enough or in such a hurry that he interpeted Custer slightly different or like I asserted may have added his own thought.--Who's to say that it couldn't have occured. Just think of the ramifications if it did happen like I suggest--not saying it did, just pointing out that it could have happened!

[Scout]

Tony...actually that's a very good theory. Perhaps Custer kept asking out loud where Benteen and the pack train was. Quite possible Cooke took it upon himself to request both to come on. Kanipe carrying a message is highly questionable though.

[Tony]

Thank you Scout---I was merely pointing out the ramifications if the note was actully Cooke's wording and not Custers---it was possible that the only assertion on Custer's part was "get Benteens a-- up here quick. We're hitting this village NOW"--and Cooke's thought was "ok, but we're gonna need that packs too" and wrote it as such.
How many times in history were messages misinterpeted or wordings on messages mis-printed. How many times have you heard after an order and subsequent investigation--"Hey, thats not what I said at all"------I'm only saying "IT"S POSSIBLE"--and in this case if it were---WOW!

[Realbird]

Tony, how about this speculation. Custer never needed, desired, or requested the "packs." The "packs" being supplies necessary to support hundreds of soldiers on the march. Items such as foodstuff for the men and forage for hundreds of mounts.

What he must have needed was, as he gazed upon a rather large Indian village , was the "ammunition packs!" Realizing that he was about to engage the enemy, he needed the mules carrying the ammunition (these were the better conditioned animals and particularly selected for such a special need) to be cut loose from the pack train and hurried forward.

His adjutant, Cook, hastily scribbles a note to Martini (who is a young Italian unfamiliar with the English language) to bring the ammunition quickly. In his haste to do so, Cook, inadvertently omits a critical nomenclature, "ammunition." Realizing this, he attempts to correct the problem with a post script, P,S. bring the pacs, once again omitting the critical "ammunition."

Anyone who would deem this omission as impossible has never attempted to scribble a note under acute stress. Furthermore, ask yourself, why would Custer demand the immediate response of "packs" containing, oats, bacon, coffee, bread, underwear, horseshoes and nails, tobacco, etc. when about to encounter the fight of his life?

Your assertion regarding "messages" is important. How many times have the true intent of a request been misrepresented due to mistakes in messages? I,for one, appreciate your insight.

[Tony]

Realbird----my sentiments exactly. I have seen first hand messages sent under duress and or in a hurry, that were misinterpeted, misread, and miswritten. I have heard orders given in the same circumstances that were verbally different from one man to the next as soon as they were given. Thus--"Hey I never said that" when things went wrong.
Through the years, historians have debated why Custer would send for the packs and what intentions he had based on that order. But most forget that it was Cooke that wrote the message and not Custer. A mis-written message would sure explane a lot. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Everyone is trying to engender a theory based on the wording of that message. No one stopped to think what if the message was misworded and not what Custer really said. He very well may have only wanted Benteen/extra men and ammo--Cooke adds his interpetation and thinks Custer means packs as well---could be Custer never mentioned packs or possibly didn't even want the packs up at that time!

[PhillyBlair]

Tony, I hope you didn't take any of the fun remarks personally. I certainly didn't mean anything toward you, and I don't think anyone else did either. Sorry if it was taken that way.

Keep posting!

Blair