A couple puzzling points

[fred]

wild--

You have to join the LBHA to get the 10-issue per year "Newsletter" and the twice-a-year "Research Review" magazine. Both are excellent publications and Diane has all the info. She is the Honcho.

Scout--

I completely agree w/ you about Lynch. What an opportunist!

Gordie--

Your reasoning is very sound, though I do think it was Gerard's report that provided the impetus. And I completely agree about the "phantom 100." It's horsefeathers.

Also, my comment about Kanipe marrying Bobo's widow was more tongue-in-cheek than anything else. I certainly would not judge the man on that. My doubts about Kanipe started w/ these 100 Indians and the flag really went up when McDougall and Mathey said he never reported to them.

Best wishes to you all,
Fred.

[Dark Cloud]

Anything that comes out in narrative form - whether by an eyewitness or not - after the RCOI should be considered fiction absent impressive confirmation. "Anything processed by memory is fiction" is the convenient quote from Wright Morris, and it becomes more so with time.

I'll drop kick the dead horse yet again (I've had coffee) in hopes someone will go through the process and see what I think I see and reach the same conclusions, which are downers to the Custer industry: these conclusions rather bland and devoid of much excitement. I have to say the frigid lack of enthusiasm for it suggests a fear that people would agree. It's the process that is as important as the variable end results. In any case:

1. Kill consideration of any remark or interview after Jan. 1, 1880. No matter from who.

2. Re image LSH in your mind by removing 20% of the spurious, moving markers to where photos and testimony says the bodies were. This spreads out far fewer markers, with a line of them heading down what is now the road to Keogh's sector, the commander at the memorial site with, by testimony, men around him. Boston and Reed, who may not have been found at all, way west. It looks and feels very different. Very much like (or not unlike, anyway) people being killed while in a movement blunted by unexpected attack at the hill crest. I truly think the image of those closely spaced markers underlies too many suppositions. Like: a last stand, a unit in cohesive manuever under command.

With some exaggeration, it's all of a piece with the remarks of the officers on the 27th. Disgarding the polite conventions of description, it sounds like - and no matter the precise markers removed and moved, it looks like - a horrendoplasty.

Once the end result image shifts in mind, so many of the theories feel really pretentious and, in fact, really are.

[elisabeth]

DC,

No arguments with "horrendoplasty".

The trouble with trying to kill off the Custer industry, however -- aside from depriving the world of much fun -- is that even the most rigorously rational re-ordering of markers, testimony, descriptions etc still leaves areas of mystery in which theory can and will flourish. For instance: "a movement blunted by unexpected attack at the hill crest". Yes, that's what several observers in the immediate aftermath thought they saw, as well. But ... to where? Simply an attempt to gain high ground? Or an attempt to retreat north to Terry? If the latter, fine: it's logical (if not especially glorious) and what those on Reno Hill assumed had happened. But if the former, it must have happened some way into the battle -- or the obvious high ground would have been Weir/Sharpshooter, where there was a sporting chance of support. So the next question is, what were they doing in the intervening time? Cue theories. And another: the bodies around Custer on LSH. It's undeniable that enough were recognised to establish that assorted officers were there while their companies were elsewhere. Again, questions. Was it, as some suggest, an officers' call? Or was it a breakdown of procedure/discipline/morale/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, in which Custer's favoured few flocked around him, and their companies were left to go hang? More cue for theories. Yet again, there's timing. If one's prepared to accept the RCOI testimony -- which itself is "processed by memory", of course, as what is not -- there was gunfire heard for some considerable time after the ball started rolling for Custer's engagement. One traditional view was that the cavalry was met by overwhelming firepower at MTF, driven like buffalo, and slaughtered at will. Maybe ... But "a rout, a panic, till the last man was killed" would have taken far less time than the serious firing is reported to have lasted. That time needs to be accounted for -- and hence, more theories.

You are definitely doing great stuff in calling into question some of the more elaborate fancy-footwork interpretations. But I suspect that, even casting the coldest of possible eyes on this thing, it's not going to be possible to remove all the avenues for speculation ...

[harpskiddie]

dc:

I was so taken by your cogent remarks that I had to put aside my budgeting in order to post a response, not a rejoinder, but a response.

I disagree with fixing a date beyond which ANY remark or interview should be discounted entirely. I think that EVERY remark or interview or diary ir whatever should be looked at askance abd taken with a grain of salt and serious doubts no matter when it was made/given/written and blah blah blah. Each of us has to weigh every piece of "evidence" for ourselves.

About ten years ago, I did a map as part of my own research [actually it is several maps, which would - if I could figure out how to do it - fit together or overlap to make one rather huge one] which takes away what I consider to be spurious markers. The resulting maps are much as you have described, indicating that there were very few areas where commanded resistance was made, and that the fight on Custer Field degenerated into a set or series of small firefights or stands. As I said elsewhere, I am not yet prepared to debate my conclusions, since they are not fully formed.

I think I know pretty much where the bodies were found, and I do think that the locations are fairly indicative of where they died, but how they came to be there and what they were doing are in the main, for me, unresolved questions. It's the old "were they going from A to B, or B to A" and etc etc etc quandary/conundrum.

Gordie

[AZ Ranger]

Gordie- GIS works for overlays and each layer can be added or removed from any map produced.

AZ Ranger

[AZ Ranger]

DC I don't know about picking a time certain date but I support the general principle of what persons remember and changes with time.

First any firsthand accounts written fresh(within in a week) unless it was false to begin with would be best. If the person does not write an account and has multiple conversations and interviews it is subject to change within the individuals memory. I am not talking about fabrication but actually what the person thinks they remember. In that kind of recounting one should use caution with any statement.

I had a recent experience where I had to recall an event that occurred 7 months prior. I remembered that a suspect knew who I was without identifying myself as an officer. I could not remember all the details. My memory completely left out how it occurred. After reading my report I had a different memory recall. Now if anyone asked I would remember the reported version because now those details are important. If I hadn't written the report while the event was fresh I would have recalled it incorrectly.

AZ Ranger

[harpskiddie]

Steve:

Except, I daresay, that you had your notebook(s) for reference. I know that a company I once worked for kept the notebooks on file forever, so that a report [which was written at the time from the notes taken at the time] could always be fact-checked in the future, if need be, even were the officer no longer available. Evidence, no. Recorded facts, yes. And could be referred to if the officer were testifying, whereas the report itself might not be admitted.

As to the maps, my problem is that they were done by area - Calhoun, Keogh, intervals each way, outlying, Finley, LSH, SSL slope, Deep Ravine etc etc, so that they do not necessarily overlap, and the scale is so large that, and the reference points so problematical that nothing works too easily. They are on plain paper, not keyed to the terrain, but to the marker locations in isolation, as it were. I will have to redraw them as one, using either a topo [several of which I have] or a Google dealie. Thanks for the tip, however.

I know what you mean about memories and etc. If anyone could come up with a sliding scale that weighs accounts of past events [somewhere I would guess that this has been attempted, possibly by one or more psychologists] with some validity, that might be helpful. Or not. But 4 years after the event is way to soon to start dismissing things, I think.

Gordie

[Dark Cloud]

I'm not saying that everything or even most everything compiled after the RCOI was bogus, but only that it isn't really needed.

You're Custer. You're on a high hillside without cover, your command spread out somewhat less than .75 of a mile square. You're under attack. Hard to tell what exactly is happening, but among the instinctive things you are contemplating - at least not involving your bladder - a future book tour celebrating today's sure victory is not one. At this juncture, you suddenly conclude that the proper thing is to have/sound Ent Moot so that as many high priority targets become clustered on high ground with no - zero - cover. That's the ticket. Genius, of course, yet I can't help but wonder what such a gathering would accomplish that Custer couldn't do with Cooke?

Nothing, but it deflects attention away from all those officers, who actually compose an even larger percentage of the dead about Custer when them thar spuriouos makers are gone. Coincidental, of course.

And do you think that the time and manpower spent to gather in the guys couldn't have been better spent sending messengers - given trumpeters might be down or otherwise engaged or emphesemic - with another mission? Say - oh, I don't know - "orders?" Custer, who isn't a creature of the New Age given to sharing crystal vials of confidences regarding the synapses known as "a plan" with mere fellow officers when distracted from Thoughts of Libby is seriously proposed as seeing and immediately deciding to alter the error of sixteen years of command while in a dice with Death? And.......form and poll a committee and act on it? Custer? ANYone? The guy who said "You have your orders" rather than explain them?

Well, a wounded Custer's conflicting command structures - official and actual - might feel that need. Their inability to function probably brought them there. But it's a really stupid decision if so.

We don't know that the firing heard by Reno's command was fired by Custer's soldiers. At some point, it ALL became Indian fire. I have no evidence to debate one way or the other when Custer's guys were dead, but the evidence for a later time is no stronger than for an earlier one. "Coulda...."

"High ground" is pretty useless if it offers no cover and you're totally exposed to shielded foes. As Benteen knew and operated on that, so would Custer.

And if we can promote Our Hero Always on the Offensive, then the ridiculous reasons given for him not taking the quickest and surest way either to the battle (Our Hero always rides to the sound of firing, right?) or to the civvies by MTCF might not seem so highly suspicious. Since he had opportunity and some surprise and he didn't act on it, even an hour after Reno engaged.

Custer was either hurt or he whiffed big time. I grant him the benefit of the doubt, and I think it more reasonable than these line dances envisioned. You can't snicker about the MTC skirmish since there were no bodies and seriously propose a Northern Adventure and ignore the lack of corpses up there. There is great inconsistency. The criteria for accepting or ignoring evidence is totally changed around the field at need.

And by the way, by now we've all been exposed to the mutually exclusive descriptions of Saddam's execution and the conflicting stories of his Last Words. Either Mutquada (as in Sadr) or Mohammed. One of them......... And all recorded. People are used to being able to frame events according to - I'm sorry, but it's true - templates of behavior. The Shiites want to credit their pudgeball with bringing him low, the Sunnis want his last words to be of a religious nature. No clue, myself, but this is what happened at LBH, and he is an example of not dissimilar import just today.

[wild]

DC et al
Re image LSH in your mind by removing 20% of the spurious, moving markers to where photos and testimony says the bodies were.
You are right about the markers but it is not a real issue.You could add another 100 spurious markers and Custer's position would appear just as nonsensical.Custer was posed a question thus what is the response of a force of 200 to the presence of 1500 warriors 3 minutes away?Custer scholars are still examining his reply to discover an answer rather than accept the obvious...he had no answer.There is no military response to be found anywhere on that field.He was caught in line of march along battle ridge from a headon attack and simply rolled up.

Liz
And another: the bodies around Custer on LSH. It's undeniable that enough were recognised to establish that assorted officers were there while their companies were elsewhere.
One could expect Tom and Cooke to be on LSH plus the officers of the point Company Yates and Reily that just leaves Smith and his company could have been second in line so no great mystery

[AZ Ranger]

Steve:

Except, I daresay, that you had your notebook(s) for reference. I know that a company I once worked for kept the notebooks on file forever, so that a report [which was written at the time from the notes taken at the time] could always be fact-checked in the future, if need be, even were the officer no longer available. Evidence, no. Recorded facts, yes. And could be referred to if the officer were testifying, whereas the report itself might not be admitted.

Until last year you were correct. In Arizona under Rule 15 of the Arizona Supreme Court rules of evidence we now have a decision to make. Before 20 days you must destroy your notes or make the whole notebook available. Since it would include information that you would not want made available regarding other cases etc. , I now write my report and then destroy the notes.

Steve

[Diane Merkel]

wild said:

How does one get a newsletter?

wild, non-members can order copies of past publications also. The Newsletter with the Kanipe article is the October 2006 issue (see www.lbha.org/Sales/newsletters/news2006.htm). The cost for non-members is US$3.00 for each Newsletter plus shipping, which is US$1.70 to Ireland.

[mcaryf]

I have not seen Vern's article about Kanipe but one of the points it would have to address is that Custer should have been sending a messenger to the pack train at that time to tell them to follow him up the bluffs.

If Kanipe was not that messenger then who was?

The only other messenger we know of was Martini. His message did tell Benteen to bring the packs so it could just about be argued that Custer had done something re sending a message to direct the packs. However, the later timing of Martini's despatch compared with Kanipe's is virtually impossible to justify if he was the only messenger Custer intended to tell the packs which route to follow.

The problem with Kanipe is that none of the three officers who were supposedly the intended recipients (Benteen, McDougall and Mathey) seem to have received the appropriate gist relevant to them.

I probably veer towards thinking that Kanipe was a genuine but incompetent messenger as I do not think Custer was so incompetent as not to have a sent a messenger to the pack train at this crucial juncture.

regards

Mike

[markland]

If Kanipe was not that messenger then who was?

Mike, I absolutely can't resist posting this answer: Nathan Short?

Happy New Year!

Billy

[elisabeth]

Mike,

I see what you mean. And I have to admit that I waver back and forth from day to day on Kanipe. One persuasive factor is that no-one seems to have cast any aspersions on him at the time, and he was accepted as a thoroughly straight guy for the rest of his career ... Wish we had the record of those Fort Lincoln hearings mentioned by Henry Jones. (See the Men With Custer section on Korn.) Korn had to give an account of himself when they got back; it'd be illuminating to know if Kanipe did too, or if his story went completely unquestioned.

Another puzzle, though. Kanipe's order dictates the route; Martini's doesn't. Does the second order override the first? On the face of it, Benteen's left with the discretion to bring the packs by whichever route ("the two horns of a dilemma") he sees fit. A change of plan? Or just sloppiness on Cooke's part? Of course, your earlier suggestion -- that Custer thought Benteen was behind the packs -- would solve it; Benteen would be following the packs on the route they'd already been ordered to take. However, it's very hit-and-miss. Kanipe clearly doesn't act as any sort of a guide. And Martini isn't expected to either, having been ordered to rejoin the command if he can. They could have ended up almost anywhere.

Was just wondering ... what did he plan to do with the packs when he got them? 175 or so temptingly-laden mules are a lot to park out in plain sight, anywhere on the battlefield. Putting them on the bluffs might work, but would be inconvenient for re-supply. Arguably, each company could have taken an ammo mule, but it'd hamper their movements if they needed to charge. Sheer speculation, obviously ... but could that be what he intended to use MTC for? It'd be quite a good, sheltered place to put them; central (as he'd have thought) to his own and Reno's operations; and the pack train guard could serve as a stopper in the neck of the bottle to prevent Indians crossing from the village that way, protecting his rear while he ranges further north. He sends two companies down to clear out the mouth of the coulee ready for the packs to occupy it, keeping to the ridges himself to (1) cover their arrival and (2) move on once they're in place. Fanciful, perhaps ... but it could be one explanation for his cavalier disregard for this obvious avenue by which Indians can flock across and surround him: he doesn't bother to block it because he thinks the packs will be along any minute to do just that. Then, of course, with Reno's retreat, Indians come flooding from the bluffs to the south -- he realises no-one can get through -- and the MTC route is wide open to the Indians too -- and he's had it.

Well, just a thought, and probably a daft one. But I'd be interested to hear ideas on where else he would/could/should have stationed the packs ...

[Scout]

I personally believe there was possible another messenger sent to Reno...maybe two, who just didn't get through. We know Martini barely got through. His horse had been shot once or twice. There was one body found in a ravine by itself...a possible courier to Reno or Benteen. I think Custer would have made an attempt to stay in touch with the other companies. Possible later notes read "where in the hell are you?" speculation of course, but he was waiting for Benteen to show. I questioned whether Foley or Butler were acting as messengers as some have suggested but now believe they were killed in some rear guard action as the command moved north. But I definetly think he did send others...

Nathan Short...I have never been able to figure out how a story with no evidence or data has become a historical fact. A lot of this mess was started by Kanipe. The other half by Walter Camp's notes which have been someone misinterpreted through the years. I think the three best eyewitneses to this story are all nothing more than gossips. Somebody knew somebody who heard somebody saw a hat! What nonsense. Poor Short died with his company and deserves better. A myth with a monument. If you want to read a great book on the subject get Doug Ellison's 'Mystery of the Rosebud'....a small little book that is one of the most interesting reads on the subject.

Elisabeth...good question about the pack train. Some 150 to 175 pack mules strung out arriving during a fight. I don't see how they could have all been guarded against such huge numbers of warriors. I think he waited for them in the MTC area.

Remember Goldin said he was a messenger as well. Right.

Do you ever feel like you are in a real life version of 'Groundhog Day?'