A couple puzzling points

[crzhrs]

Fred:

Benteen did all he was supposed to do: He moved TOWARD Custer and found a battle taking place with Indians chasing soldiers up a hill. He did what any other officer would have done: came to their assistance.

Agreed that he got overly opportunistic info from Kanipe/Martini and with the cryptic message about "come quick/bring packs" only adding to the "what-the-heck's-going-on" confusion.

Is Custer in trouble or is he about to ride through the Sioux Nation and gain a big victory while Reno is licking his wounds?

Benteen made the right choice . . . but someone should have bent sent further ahead to see what was taking place.

And Benteen, the shrewd one that he was . . . kept the note "just in case" to show he had "followed instructions" only to have to "deviate" them because of unforeseen and compelling circumstances.

[fred]

Horse--

No arguments from me!

Best wishes,
Fred.

[elisabeth]

Fred,

"Vexing" is right. It's almost an all-or-nothing case, isn't it. Any assumption on Custer's part that Benteen would come to him only makes sense in the case of total triumph or of total disaster: if (1) Reno is entirely wiped out, and no longer a factor, or (2) is charging through the village driving everything before him. Anything in between, and Benteen can't help but be diverted by Reno. Yet the sightings of Custer (or whoever it may have been) on the bluffs indicate that Custer knew Reno had formed skirmish line, thus (2) is out of the picture. And if Custer believed (1), he surely wouldn't have gone about things in such a leisurely, unpressured way. One could almost -- almost -- believe Custer had just expunged Reno from his mind entirely. He certainly doesn't seem to factor him in in any meaningful way. It's a puzzle.

[dcary]

Like to add to this discussion another little subtlety. Weir is often praised for wanting to go to the sound of the guns -- which is exactly what Benteen did (and never was praised for), only the guns he went to weren't Custer's and he evidently didn't know that at the time. Leaving Reno in the disorganized state that existed immediately after the rout, however, was exactly what Weir wanted to do.

[markland]

elisabeth said:

Fred,

"Vexing" is right. It's almost an all-or-nothing case, isn't it. Any assumption on Custer's part that Benteen would come to him only makes sense in the case of total triumph or of total disaster: if (1) Reno is entirely wiped out, and no longer a factor, or (2) is charging through the village driving everything before him. Anything in between, and Benteen can't help but be diverted by Reno. Yet the sightings of Custer (or whoever it may have been) on the bluffs indicate that Custer knew Reno had formed skirmish line, thus (2) is out of the picture. And if Custer believed (1), he surely wouldn't have gone about things in such a leisurely, unpressured way. One could almost -- almost -- believe Custer had just expunged Reno from his mind entirely. He certainly doesn't seem to factor him in in any meaningful way. It's a puzzle.

My thinking is that GAC made an assumption that if worse got worse, Reno would retreat back the way he had come, i.e., Ford A. GAC had both Indian & white scouts who knew the area and he had also had been on the bluffs at one time himself & knew that there was no viable crossing between LTC and Ford A; viable for cavalry that is. While GAC undoubtedly had a low opinion of Reno, my belief is that he knew Reno and his record well enough to know that Reno would not attempt to have horses cross the river and climb steep bluffs while under enemy pressure. Also, again my belief, he knew Benteen was north of Ford A and following GAC's trail. The latter was reinforced by Boston's arrival with news of Benteen's definite location. The 'plan" unwound when Reno in a moment of tactical genius/desperation/abject panic (you take your pick!) forced a crossing between Benteen and GAC. And for what it is worth, my opinion is that Benteen had no other choice than to stop and help organize Reno's badly fragmented command.

Happy New Year to all,

One-handed Billy (who would rather be Cool Hand Luke than the current predicament.)

[wild]

Benteen was obliged to follow Custer's orders.Orders do not allow for second guessing or assumptions.For all Benteen knew Custer could have had the Reno situation covered.
If Reno was being abandoned then that was for Custer to decide.
When Benteen halted his command at Reno Hill at 4.20 Custer had not as yet been engaged, his 5 companies were still intact.
Benteen states that he reported his command to Renothus relinquishing all his responsibility at a vital moment in the battle.A more dynamic officer would have sent word to McDougal that Reno required a wet nurse urgently and have pressed on to Custer.He never even considered sending a galloper forward to Custer with word of what was happening.Punctious Pilate like he allowed someone else to decide Custer's fate.

[crzhrs]

<Leaving Reno in the disorganized state that existed immediately after the rout, however, was exactly what Weir wanted to do>

We have discussed Weir in the past . . .

He left on his own, without orders, twice. Once at the morass and again at Reno Hill. He jeopardized his comrades only to run when Inidans attacked at Weir Hill . . . just like Reno ran when Indians countered him.

[crzhrs]

Billy:

I think most of us agree with you. Benteen had no choice other than to assist Reno and try to get the command organized.

Reno was a known issue . . . while Custer was an unknown, though someone should have sent a company ahead to investigate Custer's position. And it should not have been a junior officer (Weir) making that decision.

[dcary]

Wild: What I have seen most often in print is that Benteen comes under Reno’s command once the two bodies join up and the contents of the note to Benteen becomes Reno’s problem. Is Benteen, in your opinion, wrong to go to the sound of the firing – if so, how is he to know that it is not from Custer’s men? If Custer, as you say, were not engaged at the time, how would either Reno or Benteen know it was a ‘vital juncture’ of the battle? I think Reno is entitled to assume Benteen’s command is perhaps meant to be under him under the orders he says GAC gave him – ‘you will be supported by the whole outfit.’ Benteen is certainly part of the ‘whole outfit’ Custer’s orders evidently led Reno to expect, and the ‘come quick’ in the note sheds no light on it. Reno said later that as the lead element in things, he was the one entitled to expect support, not be expected to give it, or something to that effect.

I agree with you about sending a messenger or patrol towards Custer and a messenger to MacDougal. Should have been done, but I don’t think they were worried at all about Custer and certainly felt no urgency toward him.

[fred]

wild said:

Benteen was obliged to follow Custer's orders.Orders do not allow for second guessing or assumptions....

If Reno was being abandoned then that was for Custer to decide.

Benteen states that he reported his command to Renothus relinquishing all his responsibility at a vital moment in the battle.A more dynamic officer would have sent word to McDougal that Reno required a wet nurse urgently and have pressed on to Custer.He never even considered sending a galloper forward to Custer with word of what was happening.Punctious Pilate like he allowed someone else to decide Custer's fate.

wild-- Since you believe Benteen disobeyed his orders, I assume you believe Custer was remiss when he disobeyed his.

As for Benteen not being "dynamic"... well, one may be able to criticize Fred Benteen, but I hardly think the sobriquet, "undynamic" is something that would fit very well. There are those out there who believe the American military has never had a braver man, and regardless of his personal faults, that he was the quintessential American officer. Even as a combat veteran, I could not disagree.

In either case I do not agree w/ you, but then that is what these discussions are all about.

As for the packs bailing out Major Reno, I do believe they arrived some 65 minutes after Benteen (if you believe Gray's timing sequences). I would pose the question to you, if you were in charge of three cavalry companies and you came upon your superior officer, and you saw the plight of his command-- forget him, personally, his beaten command is the issue-- would you have mosied on and left him to the whims of 900 hostile screamers in the valley while the packs struggled to reach him? "Sorry boys, got a date w/ an angel! Orders read... tell the packs to hurry, won't you?"

And what about those packs? Weren't they part and parcel of Benteen's orders? It would be an interesting discussion if Benteen had come across Nye-Cartwright and met Custer on Calhoun Hill without the packs. "Where the hell are the packs, Fred? I thought I told you to bring them!"

I am just not sure. It is a sticky situation, but I do feel we are being a little too dogmatic when we complain that Benteen did "not" follow orders. I might also add that there is an element of give in almost every order when it comes to combat. Circumstances have a way of intruding, and officers-- and NCOs, I might add-- are trained and paid to be able to properly assess a situation and act accordingly. Not all orders can be carried out to the letter. If they could, there would be no generals, only soothsayers. That sort of "take charge" is what differentiated the WWII German army from the Russians and what differentiates the American army from those same people.

Best wishes, wild, and a very happy New Year,
Fred.

[wild]

Best wishes, wild, and a very happy New Year,
Fred.
Many happy returns Fred.

We know from hindsight that Benteen's decision to halt and give aid to Reno turned out for the best.We also can take it that Benteen's troops would have made little difference to the outcome at LSH.But at 4.20 that afternoon none of this was known.The regiment was attacking and Benteen responsible for as many men as Custer plus the spare ammo is urgently ordered forward but he stalls the attack by halting his command and going on the defensive.
Where was Custer at 4.20,was he in fact no further forward than MTC?The attack on Reno ceased at 4.20 yet Benteen did nothing.
Sure Reno's command was now a shambles but Benteen's action ment that instead of 3 troops being put out of action 7 troops were now removed from the sandtable.



What I have seen most often in print is that Benteen comes under Reno’s command once the two bodies join up and the contents of the note to Benteen becomes Reno’s problem
Benteen's command is independent of Reno and Reno has no authority to countermand Custer's order.

Benteen did all he was supposed to do: He moved TOWARD Custer and found a battle taking place with Indians chasing soldiers up a hill. He did what any other officer would have done: came to their assistance.
That action is totally stupid.Agressive action is turned into a rescue mission by this sort of sentimental tripe.

Anything in between, and Benteen can't help but be diverted by Reno.
Exactly,diverted from the main objective.

Since you believe Benteen disobeyed his orders, I assume you believe Custer was remiss when he disobeyed his.
Yes

if you were in charge of three cavalry companies and you came upon your superior officer, and you saw the plight of his command-- forget him,
The object of the exercise was to win the battle.Was the battle lost at 4.20?How did assisting Reno contribute to the wining of the battle?All of you are making the same mistake and judging the situation at 4.20 from 5.30 perspective.
At 4.20 is Benteen's troops more useful with Reno than trying to reach Custer.If you think Benteen's action was right then you accept defeat.

[fred]

wild said:

We know from hindsight that Benteen's decision to halt and give aid to Reno turned out for the best.We also can take it that Benteen's troops would have made little difference to the outcome at LSH.But at 4.20 that afternoon none of this was known.The regiment was attacking and Benteen responsible for as many men as Custer plus the spare ammo is urgently ordered forward but he stalls the attack by halting his command and going on the defensive.

What I have seen most often in print is that Benteen comes under Reno’s command once the two bodies join up and the contents of the note to Benteen becomes Reno’s problem
Benteen's command is independent of Reno and Reno has no authority to countermand Custer's order.

Benteen did all he was supposed to do: He moved TOWARD Custer and found a battle taking place with Indians chasing soldiers up a hill. He did what any other officer would have done: came to their assistance.
That action is totally stupid.Agressive action is turned into a rescue mission by this sort of sentimental tripe.

Anything in between, and Benteen can't help but be diverted by Reno.
Exactly,diverted from the main objective.

Since you believe Benteen disobeyed his orders, I assume you believe Custer was remiss when he disobeyed his.
Yes

if you were in charge of three cavalry companies and you came upon your superior officer, and you saw the plight of his command-- forget him,
The object of the exercise was to win the battle.Was the battle lost at 4.20?How did assisting Reno contribute to the wining of the battle?All of you are making the same mistake and judging the situation at 4.20 from 5.30 perspective.
At 4.20 is Benteen's troops more useful with Reno than trying to reach Custer.If you think Benteen's action was right then you accept defeat.

wild--

I am not sure pressing these points any further is going do either of us any good and it may only lead to animosity, not something I want to do. I am glad you at least agree about the Custer-orders business.

As far as the rest, I just do not think you fully accept the fact that when he reached Reno, Benteen only knew Custer was having a party of it downstream. And he still had the contradiction in those orders of "bring packs." I do not know that that can be summarily dismissed.

I do, however, feel extremely strong about your comment of accepting defeat because I believe Benteen did the right thing. I have never accepted defeat in my entire life and that goes for Vietnam (you can see how delusional I am!) To me, it is not a matter of "useful" as it is "propitious." I think Benteen was on his "horns of a dilemma" here and the overriding aspects were twofold: the condition of Reno's men (along w/ all the Indians down below), and the reports of both Kanipe and Martin. If you want, then I will agree Benteen could use the packs lagging 65 minutes behind as an excuse, but he had to make a choice: aid-- and save-- the bleeding Reno command or head toward Custer who was having a jolly old time of it (as best Benteen knew).

I think you are making a mistake by saying that... "Benteen's action... accept defeat." Otherwise, your opinion is as certainly valid as mine.

"wild," you have put some good stuff up here. It is a delight to read what you write. Again, a happy, healthy, and prosperous New Year.

Very best wishes,
Fred.

[wild]

I am not sure pressing these points any further is going do either of us any good and it may only lead to animosity,
Animosity?Hell no Fred just a good robust debate.

I do, however, feel extremely strong about your comment of accepting defeat because I believe Benteen did the right thing.If you accept that the strategic reserve be diverted to rescue a defeated unit is it not logical that you accept that the objective of inflicting a defeat on the enemy has been abandoned and in military parlance that is a check?

but he had to make a choice: aid-- and save-- the bleeding Reno command or head toward Custer who was having a jolly old time of it (as best Benteen knew).
Benteen must assume that Custer is aware of the situation [as in fact he was when he sent Martin back].To do otherwise negates the military system and turns it into somekind of civilian health and safety agenda.

And of course the warmest of salutations

[crzhrs]

When Custer sends Martini back to Benteen everything was under control. The village appeared empty (except for Martini's statement of seeing only children and dogs!) and Custer was about to ride through the village and gain a huge victory.

If Custer had been told by Boyer that Reno was in trouble then Custer felt getting into the village was more important than his promise of support to Reno.

As far as we know there was no messengers sent to Reno only to the pack train and Benteen.

It appears that Custer was reniging on his support with his main objective being the village.

If so, then Custer was not honoring his promise of support.

That would be just as bad as Benteen not honoring his "orders" to go to Custer.

And that leaves Reno the odd man out . . .

It would appear that none of the senior officers (Custer/Benteen/Reno) had any intention of supporting the other . . . only protecting themselves.

[Gumby]

I think that what everyone must remember is that first, we don't know for sure what Custer was planning to do. He obviously didn't need the extra ammo when he sent for the packs. He may have wanted the extra men but what good would they have been while still herding the mules? He may have sent for the packs to insure that the Indians didn't get to them during the fighting. This is more plausible since he was beginning to see that attacking and subjugating the entire village would have been tougher than herding cats. He may not have seen the entire village but he certainly saw enough to know he was in for a tough fight. He probably gave Reno's command little, if any, thought.

The note to Benteen was unclear and thus entitled if not forced Benteen to use his own discretion as to who to support. The messengers acted with almost total incompetence when they delivered their messages and afterward. They poorly expressed the information at best and made no effort to inform the detachment commanders where Custer had gone or that another division of forces had occurred (Reno). Nobody had a clue what anyone else was doing, including Custer. The "fog of war" worked against Custer.

As far as giving up any hope of victory went, I would have to argue along with Fred that as far as Benteen knew Custer was winning, at least according to Kanipe and Martin. Benteen was then bolstering a routed detachment in need of assistance. From hindsight alone do we now realize that Benteen might have accomplished more had he continued to Custer. He might also have caused the complete destruction of the regiment had he done so. Even Benteen's detractors admit that he saved the men by his actions in defense of the bluffs. He was the glue which allowed the survivors to hold their ground. I believe even Benteen wondered what might have happened had he continued on to support Custer instead of Reno and it ate at him for the rest of his life.

We also have no certain knowledge as to when Chuster's fight began. According to Martin, Custer began fighting in MTC shortly after he left with the note for Benteen. That would have been around 3:30 pm give or take ten minutes. The firing immediately to Reno's front or rear, as the case may be, as well as the distance involved, would have kept any of the men of the Reno/Benteen commands from hearing the other fight until the Indians had almost all left Reno's front. Additionally, it is hard for anyone to imagine a man of Custer's impatience and courage to sit on his hands for almost an hour for anyone to show up.

Benteen certainly had his personal flaws, as we all do, but he was neither a shirker nor a coward.