The panic run theory

[PhillyBlair]

I think that's very plausible, Elisabeth. One thing to consider about Keogh -- he was wounded while on Comanche. His leg was broken from a bullet wound and blood was found on Comanche at the point where that wound would have been. Does this mean he was behind his men giving orders from his horse? Or does it mean he was on the way to somewhere else when shot? Also, there was no evidence of horses being used as a barricade around Keogh, so whatever happened likely happened very quickly.

[elisabeth]

Indeed, the same bullet went through Comanche.

He could have been in front of his men, leading them, which is another possibility. You raise a great point, actually. Is there any evidence anywhere of the number of horse carcasses found in the area? If there were none or few, it would imply a dismounted skirmish line; if more, it would imply a mounted action (which would fit better with the idea of an attempted rapid response to a crisis).

[norseman]

From most of the accounts I have read, it sounds like the indians had done a pretty good job of running off the horses of both Calhouns and Keoghs units which did two bad things. It left them afoot and in many cases the horses had the spare ammunition for each man which left them short of ammunition. From some accounts, it sounded like Calhouns disciplined defense was working untill the men ran out of ammo. I am not sure what went on with Keoghs unit as the markers on the battlefield showed them on the east side of the ridge down off the ridge.

[elisabeth]

Yes, that's what made me wonder if they were trying to counter the attack on the horse-holders. As you say, they'd have been pretty helpless once the spare ammunition had been run off.

[norseman]

Were I to guess Elisabeth, I would say that the group around Keogh were making a last ditch stand . Accts I have read claim that there was a group of SGT s around his body . I have also heard that there were a number of shell casings around their bodies , so they sold their lives dearly.

People talk about how crack the 7th was but as I have said before , many of the men that died were new recruits and would not have been much good in a real scrape. Those old SGT s on the other hand would have a pretty good handle on what to do in a tough spot, probably better than many of the younger officers.

For whatever reason , Keoghs body along with the rest were down slope and north and east of Calhoun hill. My guess they were pushed their by the press of an indian attack from all sides.

[PhillyBlair]

^{My guess they were pushed their by the press of an indian attack from all sides.}

Yes, but where were they when they were pushed? Knowing that would go a long way toward unlocking some of the mystery.

[Melani]

blairbee said:

^{My guess they were pushed their by the press of an indian attack from all sides.}

Yes, but where were they when they were pushed? Knowing that would go a long way toward unlocking some of the mystery.

Could they have been at the top of the ridge? Would they have gone down the east side in response to a threat coming at them from farther east, or is it more likely they would have been pushed down by pressure from the west? It's really hard for me to imagine the latter after having stood down there; the phrase "shooting fish in a barrel" comes to mind. It's totally surrounded by pretty high ridges, and you just can't see anything of the rest of the area. I would think that if they started on top of the ridge, they would have done better to try to stay there.

[elisabeth]

I wonder if there's a clue in White Bull's account? As relayed by Michno, at least, in Lakota Noon, p. 206. "White Bull burst over the hogback of the ridge between the second and third companies [L & I] and rode to the west side. He could see that the attack had forced some of the first company [C] to run towards the second, while the third company (Keogh's) started south in the direction of the first two." Could be they were pushed; or could be they were rushing to counter the attack and try to join up with Calhoun ..

[Melani]

Counter attack seems more rational. I haver just gone over various maps in Lakota Noon, and it looks like they were being menaced from the east. I just can't imagine any reason for Keogh to be down there except on purpose; it's just a horrible defensive position--even a novice like me can see that. A counter attack seems also in character--otherwise, I should think he would have been desperate to stay on top of the ridge. Once down what I think of as the backside of the ridge (the eastern side, away from the river), they were hemmed in to the south by a real nasty ravine, and it was uphill to join either Custer or Calhoun.

[crzhrs]

Weren't Keough's horseholders in the depression? It's possible once warriors started compromising Keough's position the remaining men may have made a mad dash to get to horses and ended up being sitting ducks for the indians.

[harpskiddie]

I keep putting this question on this thread, and it keeps disappearing.

If there was a panic run from MTC, how do you account for the cartridge case evidence in the Blummer/Nye-Cartwright/Luce ridge area?

Have fun everyone.

Gordie

[elisabeth]

Great question.

I suppose a spoilsport could say that they were organised enough intially to do that, but that then the alleged Custer wounding started the panic ... But it just does not fit with the Indian accounts of controlled withdrawal and a long period of light, harmless firing. The cartridge case evidence you cite does fit with Indian accounts. One more nail in the coffin of the panic run.

[Dark Cloud]

There isn't a single nail in the panic theory. All those cartridges - not a one of which is yet proven part of the fight - were left the next year as Payne testified at RCOI.

No? Prove it. Can't prove a negative? Okay. Prove your positive.

[AZ Ranger]

That is the problem with a contaminated battlefield. Forensic techniques can not be used to prove anything other than the technique used is repeatable. If the cartridges were placed there after the battle but of the same time period of manufacture then you can not differentiate them.

AZ Ranger

[elisabeth]

It's rather unclear from Payne's testimony where this firing took place; he says it was not at LSH, but other than that can be no more specific than that it was "going down the hill into the valley". Pick your hill. Down from LSH? Down from Weir/Sharpshooter? Anyone's guess, unless someone else in his party recorded the episode in more detail. As he neither saw nor heard it himself, the location remains doubtful. (As does the question of whether or not those doing the firing left their cartridge cases there, or policed them up tidily.)

Can't prove a negative, true; tough to prove a positive either. Perhaps the nearest to "proof" we can look for is the consensus of Indian accounts, and that inclines against it. Too many agree on a period of desultory firing, and on the "buffalo hunt" business coming only with the LWM/CH/WB assault on the right wing, to be ignored -- I'd have thought.