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Post by Diane Merkel on Jun 26, 2005 20:51:02 GMT -6
From a website visitor:
I heard that at least 50 percent of the cavalry at the Little Big Horn were Europeans. I was wondering if you have a breakdown showing country of origin.
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jun 26, 2005 23:03:26 GMT -6
From _They Died With Custer_ , p. 92:
Ireland 128 Germany 126 England 40 Canada 14 Switzerland 13 Scotland 12 France 8 Italy 6 Denmark 3
"Other" 17 (unspecified but there were troopers born in Wales, Prussia, Russia, Poland (?) among other places.
Company G contained the most immigrants at 36. Lt. MacIntosh, commanding, was Canadian born. G led the way in Irishmen with 19. K Company had the most Germans with 19 as well.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jun 26, 2005 23:47:52 GMT -6
Thanks, Steve. I knew it had to be in print somewhere, but I'm in Billings tonight and could not check any references.
On a different note, where is there a listing of the names on the monument, exactly as they are presented there? I often get e-mails from people who are certain they saw a certain name on the monument, but it's usually a name not listed in Hammer. I would like to be able state with certainty that the name is not on the monument.
Thanks in advance -- Diane
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jun 27, 2005 13:01:51 GMT -6
Diane, I would think the NPS staff would be able to provide a list of names on the monument. I've fished through some books but found no such listing. I do still have the 125th anniversary program, which lists all those killed, but these are not necessarily all the names carved in stone, as a number of men had aliases and could be listed under same. You could, since you are now in Billings, on your way to Rapid City, stop at the battlefield and take photos of all four sides of the monument...don't know if the names would all be legible though.
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Post by Lawtonka on Jun 27, 2005 18:38:42 GMT -6
Diane, I was looking through my photo files and I have two pretty good image of the monument. It has been one of my goals to get all four sides, next time I go out there. Just need to be there at different times of the day to get the right light. Hope this helps some. Use this URL to go to my photo album and you can see the monument photo. I have only two views but you can read the names pretty well. One of the photos was taken in 1996 when the old stains were visible from the sprinkler system. When you get to the photo, place the cursor over the right bottom of photo and you can make it a little larger. timbrads.tripod.com/timsphotos/
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Post by weir on Jun 29, 2005 9:35:44 GMT -6
From _They Died With Custer_ , p. 92: Ireland 128 Germany 126 England 40 Canada 14 Switzerland 13 Scotland 12 France 8 Italy 6 Denmark 3 "Other" 17 (unspecified but there were troopers born in Wales, Prussia, Russia, Poland (?) among other places. Company G contained the most immigrants at 36. Lt. MacIntosh, commanding, was Canadian born. G led the way in Irishmen with 19. K Company had the most Germans with 19 as well. Hi, do you have more details about the 7th fellows from France and Switzerland ?
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jun 30, 2005 22:31:17 GMT -6
Four Swiss and one Frenchman were killed at LBH. Most known of these was Farrier Vincent Charley, D Co. (born Lucerne, 1848) who was wounded in the hip during the retreat from Weir point, then shamefully abandoned to the Indians after being promised by Lt. Edgerly that they would return for him. He was hacked to death by the Sioux....I believe he was the one found with a stick shoved down his throat. The other Swiss troopers killed were Pvt. Frank Braun, M Co.; wounded in hilltop fight, died at Ft. Lincoln of wounds 4 Oct. 1876; Blacksmith John King, C Co. and Pvt. Frederick Lehman, I Co. Two other Swiss born soldiers fought with the Reno battalion; Pvt. John Lattman, G Co., and Robert Senn, M Co. Four others were not present, either assigned to the Powder River supply depot, such as a couple band members, and one in confinement. Of the French contingent, Lt. Mathey, B Co, commanding pack train, was born in Besancon, France, 1837, emigrating to US at age eight. Settled in Indiana, served in Civil War seeing extensive action. Did not attend West Point, commissioned 2Lt 7th Cavalry, 24 Sept. 1867. Pvt. Joseph Monroe, F Co. was KIA with Custer's battalion, the only Frenchman to die at the battle. Corporal Stanislaus Roy, A Co. is listed as born in France, but also listed as born in Ohio. At any rate, Roy fought in the valley/hilltop fights, was part of the water carrier party and earned the Medal of Honor for his participation. He went on to serve throughout the Indian Wars, including the Nez Perce War of 1877 as well as Wounded Knee. He served 32 years in Co. A, serving in Cuba during the war with Spain in 1898 before retiring in 1901. Pvt. Jean Baptiste Gallenne, Co M, fought with Reno and survived. The rest of the Frenchmen were not present, on detached service. In skimming over these bios, it appears several of these men were discipline problems as they were sentenced to hard labor, loss of pay, etc. One Swiss trooper deserted twice. The second time he never apprehended. Perhaps he returned to Switzerland where there were no hostile Indians. Now, after all providing you with all that information, could you or someone please tell me how to quote another post? I have not figured out how to do this yet.
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Post by Tricia on Jul 1, 2005 7:47:41 GMT -6
Steve--
To quote an earlier post, hit the 'quote' button in the upper right hand corner of the post you wish to use. This should lead to a screen that has the post re-rendered in HTML code, rather than the graphics--so it'll look a bit weird. Then edit by hitting delete or if you wish to, add your response AFTER the final use of the term [/quote]. This allows your words to appear in normal size.
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jul 1, 2005 8:33:33 GMT -6
Steve-- To quote an earlier post, hit the 'quote' button in the upper right hand corner of the post you wish to use. This should lead to a screen that has the post re-rendered in HTML code, rather than the graphics--so it'll look a bit weird. Then edit by hitting delete or if you wish to, add your response AFTER the final use of the term . This allows your words to appear in normal size. Regards, Leyton McLean[/quote] Leyton, Merci beaucoup! (hope I spelled that right)
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Post by weir on Jul 1, 2005 9:59:52 GMT -6
Pvt. Jean Baptiste Gallenne, Co M, fought with Reno and survived. The rest of the Frenchmen were not present, on detached service. In skimming over these bios, it appears several of these men were discipline problems as they were sentenced to hard labor, loss of pay, etc. One Swiss trooper deserted twice. The second time he never apprehended. Perhaps he returned to Switzerland where there were no hostile Indians. Thank you thank you thank you Steve Wilk !! I will include that in my book ! Do you have any soldier from Belgium ? I understand my fellow swiss soldier who deserted. Swiss mountains were at the time less dangerous than Montana hills...! But on Pvt Charrley's affair, I read Edgerly promised him to come back, but when Edgerly told Weir he had to go back, Weir said if he did his company will be alone to fight, because Benteen and Reno battalions were running back to Reno Hill ? Edgerly's fault, Weir's fault, or Benteen and Reno's fault ? Debate is open.
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Post by guidon7 on Jul 1, 2005 13:38:36 GMT -6
Ethnic Breakdown of the Seventh Cavalry in 1876:
Anglo-Saxon (native born and Brits) 395 Ireland 195 Germany 169 Scotland 13 Switzerland 12 Canada 9 France 8 Denmark 7 Italy 6 Wales 4 Norway 3 Other (part Indian) 3 Sweden 2 Spain 2 Poland 2 Hungary 1 Finland 1 Greece 1 Russia 1 Australia 1
Source: Men With Custer; Biographies of the 7th Cavalry (Ed. R. Nichols)
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jul 1, 2005 23:41:51 GMT -6
Steve -- I took photos of all four sides of the monument when I was there Sunday. I don't have the results yet because I used my film camera, but it was raining. Rots of ruck to me! I will try the Battlefield in the off-season. They haven't replaced Kitty Deernose yet, so I know that the staff is on overload.
Tim -- Thanks for the photos. At least I have two sides now.
Guidon 7 -- I almost referenced your article about ethnicity, but I believe it stated that you included Custer with the Germans, etc. In other words, your breakdown covers bloodline not birth place, correct? Tell me if I'm wrong!
Diane
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Post by guidon7 on Jul 2, 2005 12:24:54 GMT -6
Actually Diane, it is both. My interest started with the John Ford cavalry films that seemed to show a preponderance of Irish soldiers. My aim was then to get the percentages of Anglos, Irish and Germans as the main groups. For Anglos I combined native born Anglo-Saxons along with Brits to get that total. For the Irish and Germans I counted what appeared to be U.S. born along with those born in Ireland and Germany respectively, to get the other two most numerous groups, which turned out approximately 1/2 Anglo, 1/4 Irish and just under 1/4 German. The very small numbers of other nationalities just came along in the process of researching the major groups, and are just icing on the cake, so to speak. Confusing, isn't it? I did include the two Custer brothers under Germany. I am in contact with the father in law of GAC's great-grand nephew (I think I've got that right), a colonel in the US Army, incidentally, and he confirms that the Custer family is indeed German.
And now I must skedaddle.
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