Conducive Therapy in Flat B Sharp

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

There is some history to the poor understanding of events on Custer's Bluffs where some say he took his last look. At what?

Thus we now have a venue. Play on J41.

Apr 10, 2019 9:43:24 GMT -6 herosrest said:

Discussion.

This data offers a confusion which students of the battle should reason through in considering timing the parallel advance of Custer and Reno's commands in exiting Sundance Creek to join battle.

There is further first hand data from a participant which places the Custer's observation point nearer the ascent onto the 'bluffs'. This information is in Curtis, given by the scout Curley who like Martin, was close to Custer. Curley later left further data with Walter M. Camp.

The Vol.3. The North American Indian. I link to Curtis's MAP which indicates at '2' where Custer was seen by men of Reno's command and waved salutation. The relevant accompanying account .

The information given to Walter M. Camp by Curley is shown on this MAP

So, did Custer make only one observation from the bluffs, two or three?

From the first, or only observation, he returned to the five companies and briefed that they would go down, make a crossing, and capture the village.

My own feeling is that Custer would take a second observation as the command went forward down off the hill and then "Column left" and whole command passed down ravine toward dry creek.

Martini stated that the entire column marched down Medicine Tail Coulee to within 600 yards of the river when it halted and he was despatched to find Benteen. That isn't particularly helpful for five fords theorists but it will I hope keep consideration within realistic bounds and solve actual problems rather than riding them down in huge clouds of dusty. This problem was looked at in the primary edition of 'The Sioux Wars' and adequately and properly surmised. The second edition dealt with the issues lest robustly and was a step backwards in avoiding the problems with split wing theories.

I'm perfectly happy to outline these, if you wish. They can then be addressed. That fifteen men shot off rounds at the Luce finds does not mean that five companies rode over that terrain or deployed along it where they cannot be seen from the valley. The cartridge finds are in defilade and or blocked by the bluffs from observers to the west. If movement along this axis was being disguised then fair enough but no approach to fords below Custer's hill was ever detected by the hostile population in the valley camps. This is because, it also could not be seen. There is no view through the ridge or through the timber masking the lower fords. Disguised approach...... fine. The command was detected by hostiles in the camp who were looking across the river.

Jun 2, 2023 10:33:54 GMT -6 johnson1941 said:

Let's call it what Herendeen and Martin and Reno called/referred to it - Weir Hill.

It is just to the left of Sharpshooter's Ridge - Weir Hill. Left of "3500" on Marshall 1891 - a 3500' high point right at the bluff. (Martin & De Rudio describe it).


Herendeen
A. I know that country and from the point we called Weir’s Hill, there is a sort of swale runs down and it is nice traveling to the creek that runs in there.

De Rudio
Q. Where was that?
A. It was on the highest point on the right bank of the creek just below where Dr. De Wolf was killed.

Martin
Q. Could you see the river from that place out there?
A. No Sir the river was right at the foot of the bluff. we could see the village.
...
Q. That place from which you saw the village, dogs, children, and ponies, was it the highest point down the river below where Major Reno made his stand?
A. Yes sir, the highest hill the very highest point around there.
Q. When you moved down afterwards did some of the troops go on that high hill?
A. No sir.

Reno
Q. Do you remember about a guidon being placed at a point termed Captain Weir’s hill?
A. It was done.


WMC...

"From this hill, {Weir Hill}, can only see the Hunkpapa & Black feet lodges”

*“1700ft from Reno’s retreat up”, {along with various bearings SEEMS to put it near to the left of Sharpshooter’s Hill}.

*"From Weir's Hill to the 2 highest peaks the course is directly northwest"

*"Highest Point - Edgerly Peaks - is almost direct NW from Benteen's horseshoe"

*"Weirs Hill is 60 degrees west of North from same point"

*"Distance Weir Hill to 1st Edgerly Peak is 2500ft"

*"from Weir Hill can see the Custodians house but not the monument nor any part of Custer battlefield"
...
*"Bearings July 28.
N End of Benteen's line to sharpshooters hill N 45 W.
*To Edgerly Peak N 58 W.
*To Weir's hill N 68 W.
*To DeWolf marker N 64 W.

"Sharpshooters hill is 1280 feet long and the course is N 44 W."


Camp with martin: "Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village (from this point he could see only about 1/3 of it...Hunk and Blackfoot villages...W.M. C.) Here he turned column to the right and went down {South} coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village."

Martin jives very well with this coming and going, and returning w/benteen. As does Kanipe. And Benteen's G. And Curley.

Although how 2 places that are 'directly NW' from each other may be 15 degrees apart from another point "directly NW" from 1 of them has got me...as bad as benteen placing Martin 600yds from the ford.
*"From Weir's Hill to the 2 highest peaks the course is directly northwest"

*"Highest Point - Edgerly Peaks - is almost direct NW from Benteen's horseshoe"

*"Weirs Hill is 60 degrees west of North from same point"

Jun 15, 2023 6:45:10 GMT -6 johnson1941 said:

All seeing and waving done just north of Reno Corral - i.e. Weir's Hill...adjacent to SSR but on the bluffs…


Hairy Moccasin

"Custer yelled to us to stop, then told us to go to the high hill ahead (the high point just north of where Reno later entrenched). From here we could see the village and could see Reno fighting."


Goes Ahead

"Custer rode to the edge of the high bank and looked over to the place where Reno's men were, as though planning the next move. When they had arrived at about the point where Lieutenant Hodgson's headstone was placed later, the three Crow scouts saw the soldiers under Reno dismounting in front of the Dakota camp and thought that the enemy were "too many." Close to where Reno and Benteen later in the day were attacked by the Dakotas, on the ridge of hills above the river, the three Crow scouts were left behind and Custer's command went down the draw toward the lower ford on the run"


De Rudio and Martin (and Benteen) we already visited and they agree....both showed Benteen the spot ("G").

"General Custer, Lieut . Cook and another man I could not recognize came to the highest point of the
bluff and waved their hats and made motions like they were Cheering...pretty soon disappeared. I judge by that that probably his column was
behind the bluff"

"I think it could not have been more than 5 or 600 yards {from Reno corral}. It was a higher point but lower down on the river."

link

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

My position, regarding what descending to faatuous irrevence over Weir's Hills is that they never were Weir's, when Custer was there (or not). The point is being crooned that the good Lt. DeRudio observed his commander on the bluffs, after his battalion had commenced action in the valley and he had accompanied a detail into the timber where hostile movement was suspected and should be discouraged. During that adventure, DeRudio believed that he saw Custer, Cooke and another, 1,000 yards distant. That was not possible.

Linked Here is a terrain map with a measuring tool. Right click and select 'measure distance'. From any of the possible locations for DeRudio, he was at leat 1,200 yards from his subject outlined against the horizon and impossible to identify at that distance. This is something which a person can figure out for themselves. Find yurself a direct line of sight to people 1,000 yards distant. You will not be able to recognise them by naked eye. DeRudio's field glasses had been lent to another officer, earlier in the day.

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

Oct 23, 2023 11:11:29 GMT -6 johnson1941 said:

And you STILL have not explained the discrepanicies with respect to the distances, real and testified to (which match) and the river distance (real and testifed to which match) - Reno peaks vs Weir HIll.

It is my view that you feel Reno Hill existed at the time of the retreat from the valley. It did not. This has flawed your thinking. Where did the bulk of Reno's survivors come up the bluffs and congregate?

Let me. At the highest point. May be discuss why?

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

Source - Some time before noon he noticed that the Dakota attack was slackening and he saw them begin to ride off down stream, which made him think that Custer's attack had began at the lower ford. They could see many Dakotas crossing the river farther up and riding down past them to the north. He said: "After the shooting had slackened, I stood up and looked around.

On the ridge above me on the highest point I saw a United States flag."

Forked Horn then said to Young Hawk: "My grandson, you have shown yourself the bravest. The flag you have seen up there shows where the pack-train is which we were to meet and we must try now and reach it. Custer had instructed them what to do, so as not to be mistaken for the Dakotas. So Young Hawk cut a stick and tied his white handkerchief on it. They tried to put Strikes Enemy on a horse; his leg was pierced by a shot and his right hand also. They were able to put him on his own horse and Goose was mounted on the horse of Red Foolish Bear, who himself went on foot. Young Hawk rode ahead with the white flag. They rode down the stream half way the length of the ridge and as they climbed up the slope they saw the Dakotas riding back on the east side of the ridge toward the white camp. The Custer fight was over and the Dakotas completely covered the hill where the soldiers had made their last stand and were swarming toward him and beginning to fire. The rest of the party turned back down the hill. Goose took Red Foolish Bear up with him and they rode back the entire length of the ridge and up at the other end into the white camp. Young Hawk remained behind and the Dakotas chased him along the ridge. He held to his white flag, waving it in front of him. The soldiers fired over him at the enemy and the Dakotas fired at him. A few rods from the camp his horse was shot down but he scrambled to his feet still carrying his white flag and ran into the camp. The first man he saw was his chief of scouts, Peaked Face (Varnum). The pack-train was there and the survivors from the fight on the Little Big Horn. Then he met the officer in charge and he was glad to see Young Hawk, his face showed it. He signed to Young Hawk that the sergeant (Bob-tailed Bull) was killed and that his horse was in camp there.

Young Hawk saw the spotted horse which belonged to Little Brave and he caught it for he had no horse of his own and he thought Little Brave must be dead. Meanwhile the Dakotas were coming up and riding around them. The other scouts who had left him now rode into the camp. Then the whole party retreated into a ravine near by (something like the ravine adjoining the house of Bears Belly, at the northwest between the graveyard and the telephone line). Here the Dakotas attacked them and the shooting made a continuous roar on both sides, soldiers and horses were killed very fast. Then the Dakotas worked around at the right and began firing into the ravine at one end. The soldiers threw up breastworks across the open end of the ravine, consisting of cracker boxes, bags of bacon, etc. Young Hawk was not one of the party that built these breastworks, but he took a cracker box and put it in front of himself as he lay on the ground. The Dakotas were on every side, firing into the ravine, they came very close, crouching in lines on all sides. The guns made such a noise that nothing else could be heard. The wounded men were dragged up to the breastworks as the safest place. This heavy firing went on without a break until it was dark. When it grew dark they began to take up the wounded and to place the dead at one side. They...........(Narrative of Young Hawk)

Now we have the highest point with........... a United States flag. There seems to have been a retreat from that point to the RBDS. If I remember and will get to it, Reno mentioned this in Chicago testimony.

So, anysways - it was about that time, on the bluffs, that the command retreated into what became Reno Hill. That was when it became a reality and played no part in anything or anything previously. That, unfortunately and particularly at Chicago (because of its bent) became a focus which infected an awful lot of conjecture and subseqeunt supposition. That's life and Looney Tunes offer some amazing examples.

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

lbha.proboards.com/thread/2542/cool-carving-south-battlefield