Jenny
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Post by Jenny on Jul 27, 2023 18:17:44 GMT -6
I posted this question on the Amer-Tribes board but I might have to wait years for an answer over there. Can anyone enlighten me as to why the Cheyenne morning star symbol on the the markers at LBH battlefield appear to be two crossed peace pipes? Jenny Attachments:
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Post by noggy on Jul 28, 2023 6:33:30 GMT -6
I posted this question on the Amer-Tribes board but I might have to wait years for an answer over there. Can anyone enlighten me as to why the Cheyenne morning star symbol on the the markers at LBH battlefield appear to be two crossed peace pipes? Jenny That's a great observation, Jenny! I think it may be an artistic choice, combining the Morning Star symbol with a symbol of peace, which is in line with the overall "message" of the battlefield in newer times. Looking around, I found this www.friendslittlebighorn.com/warriormarkershistory.htm and I'll quote what imo seems to back up this guess: "Mr. Mangum also appointed Mr. Eaglefeathers, Logan Curley, and Dolan Many Bad Horses as representatives of the Cheyenne tribes because there were no family members of the two warriors of whom anyone knew. They worked with Mr. Doerner and the Cheyenne tribal authorities on the design and wording of the markers." So maybe it is an artistic way of combining both Cheyenne culture and a broader message of peace? All the best, Noggy |
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Post by herosrest on Jul 28, 2023 13:54:00 GMT -6
An idle tought. Custer's duplicity may be represented. He smoked the pipe and talked a talk of peace. The talk was understood as promise of peace. Instead, he came in anger and went in pieces.
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Jenny
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Post by Jenny on Jul 28, 2023 15:21:40 GMT -6
You're probably right, Noggy. Thx.
J
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Post by herosrest on Jul 28, 2023 20:26:35 GMT -6
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Post by noggy on Jul 29, 2023 2:03:30 GMT -6
An idle tought. Custer's duplicity may be represented. He smoked the pipe and talked a talk of peace. The talk was understood as promise of peace. Instead, he came in anger and went in pieces. The dumping of ashes on his boot may very well have been a part of the thought process from the Cheyenne people who helped make it, absolutely, even if I think the "overall message" is as I wrote. A nice touch for sure  Noggy |
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Post by noggy on Jul 29, 2023 2:13:48 GMT -6
You're probably right, Noggy. Thx. J Well. I have a track record which would suggest otherwise when it comes to speculations, but it's a thought at least  N |
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Post by herosrest on Jul 29, 2023 5:59:56 GMT -6
An idle tought. Custer's duplicity may be represented. He smoked the pipe and talked a talk of peace. The talk was understood as promise of peace. Instead, he came in anger and went in pieces. The dumping of ashes on his boot may very well have been a part of the thought process from the Cheyenne people who helped make it, absolutely, even if I think the "overall message" is as I wrote. A nice touch for sure Noggy of the road to heritage. It took John Stands in Timber thirty years to get the battlefield people to even listen to a request for markers on the field (Don Rickey, 1956) and that went hand in hand with the Sweet Medicine tales. Tell them what they want to hear..... In 1926, Lame White Mans family asked for a marker for him, with Godfrey undertaking the Burying the Hatchet peace ceremony at Garryowen. The request was ignored for more than thirty years and then took.... another thirty (was it) to fulfil. The political now was far more important than twaddle about ford D from people wanting to build museums on the battlefield land they owned. Political expediency and the story should be told. JSiT was a wise politician who outsmarted people who did not want Indian markers on the ground. He did it with twaddle - what people wanted to hear - a new story of the battle. Just my passing view of it. 60 years to get a marker and undo Godfrey's slap in the face. |
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Jenny
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Post by Jenny on Jul 29, 2023 16:55:47 GMT -6
Not sure whether Rod Thomas is on this site, but here's his answer to me on the Amer-Tribes board. Thought you all would enjoy the story behind this:
So, my friend in this case is John Doerner, former Little Bighorn National Park Historian who was responsible for starting and emplacing the warrior markers. Here's what John says about the Cheyenne markers. "Hau Kola Rod, Thanks for your email regarding the Northern Cheyenne symbol placed on the Cheyenne warrior markers. I worked closely in consultation along with Neil and my Cheyenne Brothers including Clifford Eagles Feather. Clifford arranged a special design contest with students at Dull Knife College. Various designs were submitted including Buffalo skulls, and Buffalo. The best and most appropriate design was selected based on the Northern Cheyenne Tribe Morning Star design, however the two pipes were added to honor both the warriors and spiritual men of the tribe who’s lives were embraced with the importance of daily prayer and connection to the creator thru the peace pipe!
The design is very powerful and should be adopted by the tribe for their flag and tribal symbol. The early morning star was actually circular."
So, there you have it...and please be respectful in talking about or in using the design without permission...John was also instrumental in the placement of markers for the three Arikara men killed...plus his help with the Crow scouts was essential. Please have a grand night.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 30, 2023 4:55:27 GMT -6
I shall attempt the fine line dividing modern altruism and the politics which brought it about and remember that peace eventually followed a number of quite brutal civilian massacres during a time of different values and 'Victori sunt spolia' which was three hundred and more years carnage across the expanding states and native realms.
The tale was, and is told, that Cheyenne women punctured Custer's ears so that he might hear their Chiefs better in the afterlife.
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Jenny
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Post by Jenny on Jul 30, 2023 18:02:22 GMT -6
I shall attempt the fine line dividing modern altruism and the politics which brought it about and remember that peace eventually followed a number of quite brutal civilian massacres during a time of different values and 'Victori sunt spolia' which was three hundred and more years carnage across the expanding states and native realms. The tale was, and is told, that Cheyenne women punctured Custer's ears so that he might hear their Chiefs better in the afterlife. And I put awls in my portrait of Custer. It was just a matter of time with him. J |
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Jenny
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Post by Jenny on Jul 31, 2023 12:34:13 GMT -6
For sure, but great story.
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Jenny
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Post by Jenny on Jul 31, 2023 16:42:20 GMT -6
I think Rosebud doesn't have much to do.
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Post by noggy on Aug 9, 2023 16:17:08 GMT -6
For sure, but great story. Did you know that the final charge that wiped out Custer was led by Custer's own son that he had with Meotzi? More than one Indian has given me that little gem. What do you think of that one? Sounds plausible to me. I've teached kids at that age, leading a charge against dismounted cavalry was among the smallest problems some of them caused. Noggu |
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 10, 2023 0:22:42 GMT -6
Well some people say "nothing is impossible", but I know some people who do "nothing" all day.
Ian
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