|
|
Post by oglallah on Jun 20, 2023 11:43:28 GMT -6
Hi All!
This is my first post as a re-joined member and it is prompted by a YouTube piece that I watched last night re LBH. Datameister was the presenter and he mentioned the well known photograph of the Lakota/French scout Mitch Bouyer going on to say that there was some question of it's authenticity and that it may even have been a postcard of another Native American dating well before the battle. As he pointed out this surely casts a shadow on the jawbone fragment found at LBH which is purported to be that of Bouyer, and over which the alleged pic of Bouyer was superimposed to prove that it was the scout. Muddy waters indeed. And it opens up a whole can of worms as I am sure you guys appreciate. Not only about LBH but the use of photographic superimposition in general. I think there is a link somewhere on LBHA put there by Datameister but I am a bit wet behind the ears and have been unable to find it. Also has anyone any info regarding warrior/womens who fought/were present at LBH who went on to appear in the Wild West Shows - especially those that visited England and not necessarily those of Cody. Also any help with the Manchester and Liverpool born troopers who fought at LBH. The 2 Liverpool lads died with Custer on the hilltop fight I think. Thank you all and keep up the amazing work you do. And I am honoured and happy to be a part of it.
|
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Jun 21, 2023 0:22:16 GMT -6
Also any help with the Manchester and Liverpool born troopers who fought at LBH. The 2 Liverpool lads died with Custer on the hilltop fight I think. Thank you all and keep up the amazing work you do. And I am honoured and happy to be a part of it. Hello and welcome back  I've seen the Datameister video, and if I recall correctly there has been a similar debate for years on American-Tribes.vom. My take is that we can't say it is him or not. Not until any new picture with additional data/confirmation surfaces. You may known this site, but www.menwithcuster.com/01/ is a site dedicated primarilly to UK/GB nationals participating in the battle. It seems to have some really good bios on the individuals, including where they were born. All the best, Noggy (GGMU) |
|
|
|
Post by oglallah on Jun 21, 2023 6:01:30 GMT -6
Thank you for that Noggy. Yes I have knowledge of the site but have not visited it yet. I will certainly do so. I bought Williams's book on the 7th cavalry giving all the known details of the troopers and officers. While the info contained therein is brilliant and informative there are still a lot of areas left in the shadows. I think I recently saw a piece about Pvte Donnelly who came from the Northeast of England and it was more or less treated as a great scoop whereas those in the know are aware it has been out there for some time. I know of the 2 lads from Liverpool - Galvin and Hathersall - and was going to write an article about them but it was not within the remit of my local history history mag as it is Merseyside and I am from Lancashire (even though at the time of the battle Liverpool was in good old Lancs). I am just reading The Benteen - Goldin letters and have come across mention of Peter Thompson. I remember Philbrick regurgitating Thompson's account in his book, or at least one of his accounts, where he says that he saw Custer apparently chasing and trying to tie up a Native American woman. In the Letters it doesn't mention the incident but only expresses cynicism that Thompson's story about being left behind was true. Fascinating stuff as I am sure you will agree. Okay, I have waffled on long enough. Once again thanks for your reply and hope to swap future posts. Happy trails.
|
|
|
|
Post by brahms4 on Jun 21, 2023 6:41:18 GMT -6
Hi All! This is my first post as a re-joined member and it is prompted by a YouTube piece that I watched last night re LBH. Datameister was the presenter and he mentioned the well known photograph of the Lakota/French scout Mitch Bouyer going on to say that there was some question of it's authenticity and that it may even have been a postcard of another Native American dating well before the battle. As he pointed out this surely casts a shadow on the jawbone fragment found at LBH which is purported to be that of Bouyer, and over which the alleged pic of Bouyer was superimposed to prove that it was the scout. Muddy waters indeed. And it opens up a whole can of worms as I am sure you guys appreciate. Not only about LBH but the use of photographic superimposition in general. I think there is a link somewhere on LBHA put there by Datameister but I am a bit wet behind the ears and have been unable to find it. I read somewhere that a forensic anthropologist named Clyde Snow examined the skull fragments and determined that they were of a male that would have been part Native American and a long time pipe smoker(condition of teeth wear)Bouyer was both.Also,a non-military button was uncovered with it.To me,the fact that the skull is fragmented might also point to Bouyer who probably would have received extra bad treatment at the hands of the enemy?The photo turned out to be a Ute musician name Acapore.Obviously those are not Acapore`s remains-that fact would make me question the validity of photographic superimposition.I don`t believe Clyde Snow involved himself with the photo in question.He dealt directly with skull fragments only if I remember correctly.Maybe because both Bouyer and Acapore are males with Native American blood and the fact that you have fragments rather than intact,complete skull that you end up with a match.You could make it fit some would say.I believe the skull fragments are Mitch Bouyer`s,but the photo is of Acapore(without a doubt). |
|
|
|
Post by oglallah on Jun 22, 2023 5:37:30 GMT -6
Hi brahms4. Thanks for that. I am glad that my thread has generated some interest. The veracity of all historical artifacts is of paramount importance. Regarding Mitch Bouyer's skull fragments I have no doubt about the integrity of Snow's findings and I for one believe them to be the scout's remains. With regard to the superimposition I seem to remember that Battlefield Detectives were the ones to use that photograph of Acapore. This highlights the problems when documentaries want a scoop for their viewers. I am always wary of so-called historical documentaries that acquire the services of reputable historians/archaeologists to add gravitas to the program but slip in sensationalist theories and evidence. It is very interesting though and keeps the brain cells going at full steam. Thanks for that.
|
|
|
|
Post by brahms4 on Jun 22, 2023 14:59:00 GMT -6
Hi brahms4. Thanks for that. I am glad that my thread has generated some interest. The veracity of all historical artifacts is of paramount importance. Regarding Mitch Bouyer's skull fragments I have no doubt about the integrity of Snow's findings and I for one believe them to be the scout's remains. With regard to the superimposition I seem to remember that Battlefield Detectives were the ones to use that photograph of Acapore. This highlights the problems when documentaries want a scoop for their viewers. I am always wary of so-called historical documentaries that acquire the services of reputable historians/archaeologists to add gravitas to the program but slip in sensationalist theories and evidence. It is very interesting though and keeps the brain cells going at full steam. Thanks for that. I couldn`t find any other photos of Acapore wearing that incredible head dress with the two stuffed Stellar`s Jay.I tried researching some of the Ute museums,etc. on line to no avail.I wish I had one to maybe wear to the grocery store every so often to get a little attention! |
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Jun 23, 2023 11:40:08 GMT -6
Thank you for that Noggy. Yes I have knowledge of the site but have not visited it yet. I will certainly do so. I bought Williams's book on the 7th cavalry giving all the known details of the troopers and officers. While the info contained therein is brilliant and informative there are still a lot of areas left in the shadows. I think I recently saw a piece about Pvte Donnelly who came from the Northeast of England and it was more or less treated as a great scoop whereas those in the know are aware it has been out there for some time. I know of the 2 lads from Liverpool - Galvin and Hathersall - and was going to write an article about them but it was not within the remit of my local history history mag as it is Merseyside and I am from Lancashire (even though at the time of the battle Liverpool was in good old Lancs). I am just reading The Benteen - Goldin letters and have come across mention of Peter Thompson. I remember Philbrick regurgitating Thompson's account in his book, or at least one of his accounts, where he says that he saw Custer apparently chasing and trying to tie up a Native American woman. In the Letters it doesn't mention the incident but only expresses cynicism that Thompson's story about being left behind was true. Fascinating stuff as I am sure you will agree. Okay, I have waffled on long enough. Once again thanks for your reply and hope to swap future posts. Happy trails. It should be right up your alley, I have not studied it indepth myself so please let me know what you think of it. I see he has something about Danes (a Dane)...well, I hope he adds our two lads too! You also have Fred Wagner's "Participants", but it is ofc not that Anglophile in its approach I believe Thompson had Custer and a scout riding along with a captured woman they let loose...true or not: Philbrick is not one I would really...well, his book is actually pretty well written, I think his description of the battle itself was pretty good, and better than other authors who have written better books than him. If that makes sense But as a historian he does make some errors, to be mild. It has been a while since I read it som can't really go bananas as far as putting it down, but I recall it as being lacking and downright wrong in parts Especially as I got more into the history of LBH myself (I read it fairly early on in my own research on the topic). I hope all is well in Lancashire, it can't be easy being that close to Leeds, but you have Burnley back up. All the best, Noggy |
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Jun 23, 2023 11:52:24 GMT -6
I couldn`t find any other photos of Acapore wearing that incredible head dress with the two stuffed Stellar`s Jay.I tried researching some of the Ute museums,etc. on line to no avail.I wish I had one to maybe wear to the grocery store every so often to get a little attention! If I wore that hat here and someone I knew saw me, I would get some attention for sure. Plus get a new sweater. With really long sleeves. And a new place to live, with soft walls! (All joking aside, tons of NA clothing are marvelous) All the best, Noggy |
|
|
|
Post by oglallah on Jun 25, 2023 14:15:28 GMT -6
Thanx Noggy. Philbrick makes controversial statements and then lets them hang in the air. I know Thompson changed his story a coupla times. Having said that and given Benteen's hints Custer liked Native American women (Monasetah etc) and his tactic at that part of the battle may have been to isolate and capture the Lakota and Cheyenne and Arapaho women to subdue the warriors so may there may be an atom of truth in the story. But I don't think it was the Boy General. Thompson, if his story is to be believed, may have seen someone trying to have his way with a woman but it certainly wasn't Custer.Well, as it is the 147th anniversary of the battle I am going to watch a movie. They Died With Their Boots On. Mythical Custer as regards LBH but not the swashbuckling side of his story. I have chosen that movie because although it glorifies Custer it is sympathetic the the Native Americans. Look forward to your next post!
|
|
|
|
Post by oglallah on Jun 26, 2023 5:24:45 GMT -6
Thanks Noggy. I am from Wigan and we can can hold our own. I am reading Benteen-Goldin letters at the moment and the Holy Grail for me would be a copy of the Tribune coverage of the Court of Inquiry. It is on my wish list for Christmas. Re Thompson I have a print out of the version that Philbrick used but can't put my hand on it. I moved house around 5 years ago and still not got everything in order. I read Philbrick's trilogy of histories of the American Revolution and he was very biased against the British, as you would expect from a New Englander re the Rebellion. Norman Gelbs book is far more impartial. Watched They Died With Their Boots On last night. I had intended to have a Custer day - watching Flynn and then Custer of the West (Shaw) and Little Big Man and rounding the day off with Son of the Morning Star. However, I had booked a ticket at the flickers to watch For a Few Dollars More so the best laid plans of mice etc etc. Watched Flynn though and that was okay. Signing off now. Catch you later. I do the Volunteer Quiz for the local Archives and that is going to take up the rest of the afternoon. Happy Trails till next time!
|
|
|
|
Post by Kentishman on Jun 26, 2023 10:06:05 GMT -6
[oglallah] You write "I know of the 2 lads from Liverpool - Galvin [Galvan] and Hathersall - and was going to write an article about them but it was not within the remit of my local history history mag as it is Merseyside and I am from Lancashire (even though at the time of the battle Liverpool was in good old Lancs)." Please feel free to submit the findings of your research on Galvan and Hathersall, which I'd happily publish (as editor) in the Custer Association of Great Britain's quarterly e-newsletter - News from the CAGB - or on my personal website - www.menwithcuster.com/17 and www.menwithcuster.com/24. Other than both troopers 'saying' that they were born in Liverpool I have found no independent evidence to support either claim. I therefore would be most interested in seeing what you have managed to find about their lives prior to enlisting in the U.S. Army that I may have missed. |
|
|
|
Post by oglallah on Jun 27, 2023 13:14:12 GMT -6
Thank you for that Kentishman. I will certainly do that. I have just finished an article for the local history mag on the sinking of the C.S.S Alabama off Cherbourg Harbour. I only just managed to get that through the stick-to-local history censors because the yacht (the Deerhound) that picked up survivors from the stricken Confederate cruiser was MP for my home town. Re the Liverpool lads at LBH I have found records of other troopers from Liverpool and Manchester but info is scanty on them. But as I am a volunteer archivist, after my retirement, I have a lot of opportunity (and time) to access channels that could lead to providing a bigger picture of the lives of these young men. Thank you for your post and I will post soon.
|
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jun 30, 2023 2:42:28 GMT -6
Around the time that John S. Gray published his Bouyer study and re-assembled the battle along the lines of the White Man Runs Him scenario of Custer sitting watching Reno get whipped before galloping off to do the same in spades; facial reconstruction had become an area of media interest in both anthropological and artistic news interest. What took place with the marker 33 fragments of skull (super-imposition) and Brininstool's purported photograph, happened later with Lt. Harrington and also Sgt. Botzer found on the Reno retreat route link and others - George Lell comes to mind. Harrington by Walt Cross, endorsed by descendants. For a number of reasons I was drawn into some study of this death and the family. Cross produced complete fiction without a shred of reliable or trustworthy evidence. This is true with Boyer's supposed identification and pretty much all facial recognition derived from reconstruction which is an artistic skill, regardless that artists skills and experience. The skull compared with Harrington's image was found in the valley on the Reno fight area. That's a fact and an athropological one. It is very probably the skull of the remains buried at Garryowen in 1926, after being discovered by the Weibert's during trenching the area for irrigation. An alternate (far fetch) is that the skull was that of Charley Reynolds but that is such a stretch that it reaches the North Pole. Hopefully we all know that the north pole in the longest one used in erecting tipis. |
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jun 30, 2023 3:21:24 GMT -6
Hi brahms4. Thanks for that. I am glad that my thread has generated some interest. The veracity of all historical artifacts is of paramount importance. Regarding Mitch Bouyer's skull fragments I have no doubt about the integrity of Snow's findings and I for one believe them to be the scout's remains. With regard to the superimposition I seem to remember that Battlefield Detectives were the ones to use that photograph of Acapore. This highlights the problems when documentaries want a scoop for their viewers. I am always wary of so-called historical documentaries that acquire the services of reputable historians/archaeologists to add gravitas to the program but slip in sensationalist theories and evidence. It is very interesting though and keeps the brain cells going at full steam. Thanks for that. You will find the original 1925 publication of the Capore image in the linked book. W.A. Graham picked it up for his 1926 publication on the battle link and nearly a hundred years of............ misnomer was set in stone. Whilst fault might be lain at Denver Library's door, Brininstool runs a close second by neck and neck since the image is not of Bouyer, and why would his family say it was. This is simple stuff. There are some very serious legal implications because of the remit of this field of research providing results and opinion to international Courts and tribunals. Research Snow! |
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jun 30, 2023 3:27:33 GMT -6
|
|
