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Post by herosrest on Jan 4, 2023 13:37:29 GMT -6
7th Cavalry did scout the mouth of Tullock's Fork and report to Terry's command what was found. "The scout Sellew arrived today (June 24th) from Gen. Custer's command with mail and dispatches. He came by way of Tullock's[sic] and reports that he saw no living Indians but observed several wounded buffalos which means they cannot be too far off. Tonight we all watch the skyline for smoke." - Diary of Lt. John Carland, 6th Infantry, 24 June 1876. George This begs a number of questions with what subsequently went on leading to accusations that Custer did not send George Herendeen to Terry to report on Tullock's. Custer sent Sellew and this was certainly known by the time Terry next met Carland. A scout went down Tullock's Ck. and reported to the Far West. Terry subsequently altered the route of his march to go up the Bighorn. This particular scotch mist has been circling the battle for 146 years, now. Sellew's account of the battle tells of his ride and also that he carried the written version of Custer'sOrder's to the &th Cavalry, after they had marched from camp at the mouth of the Rosebud on the 22nd June 1876. The entire tirade against Custer that he did not scout Tullock Ck. and report through to Terry, is point blank FALSE. Remarkable. Sellew subsequently worked for N.A. Miles with 5th Infantry at the mouth of the Tongue barracks, being recommended by Terry and highly thought of and highly paid, by Miles. Go figure. A saviour in any storm - blame George. I imagine the ground at Custer Battlefield to be frozen rock hard at tgis time and suggest that C4 might be the easiest way t0 re-inter someone who probably, and in honesty really; doesn't - belong there. Yup. Rock harder than steel plate - 192.135.56.10/link to Sellew's account.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 9, 2023 18:57:10 GMT -6
7th Cavalry did scout the mouth of Tullock's Fork and report to Terry's command what was found.This begs a number of questions with what subsequently went on leading to accusations that Custer did not send George Herendeen to Terry to report on Tullock's. Custer sent Sellew and this was certainly known by the time Terry next met Carland. A scout went down Tullock's Ck. and reported to the Far West. Terry subsequently altered the route of his march to go up the Bighorn. This particular scotch mist has been circling the battle for 146 years, now. Sellew's account of the battle tells of his ride and also that he carried the written version of Custer'sOrder's to the &th Cavalry, after they had marched from camp at the mouth of the Rosebud on the 22nd June 1876. The entire tirade against Custer that he did not scout Tullock Ck. and report through to Terry, is point blank FALSE. Remarkable. Sellew subsequently worked for N.A. Miles with 5th Infantry at the mouth of the Tongue barracks, being recommended by Terry and highly thought of and highly paid, by Miles. Go figure. A saviour in any storm - blame George. I imagine the ground at Custer Battlefield to be frozen rock hard at tgis time and suggest that C4 might be the easiest way t0 re-inter someone who probably, and in honesty really; doesn't - belong there. Yup. Rock harder than steel plate - 192.135.56.10/link to Sellew's account. Whomever Sellew belonged to he was carrying the mail. What mail would that be and where would have picked it up? Since he is no listed with Custer's command who was working for. Regards BE
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 9, 2023 19:14:39 GMT -6
HR
Search your link for Sellew and it came back Not Found
BE
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 10, 2023 4:24:16 GMT -6
The long and short of this is that orders were not followed. Herendeen was attached to Custer because he was familiar with this area and had been there two years before with another group and fought these same Sioux, several times. The only scouting of Tullocks was made at the southern end, by the Montana column. They found a recently arrowed buffalo and recent sign of a hunting party.
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 10, 2023 8:25:37 GMT -6
HR
If Herendeen had been sent, maybe Terry would not have lost so much time since he could show them a better route.
In Terry's Order, the scout was to report on the upper end of Tullock's. Custer arrived and camped at Busby on the 24. There is a monument on the Cheyenne Reservation where he camped. What route would this Sellew have taken? He missed the upper part, or he was the worst scout ever. 10,000 Indians over the next ridge, and he didn't have a clue. He must have been friends with Muggins.
Regards
BE (AZ Ranger)
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 10, 2023 17:50:58 GMT -6
He probably had Muggins jug.
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 12, 2023 12:00:34 GMT -6
It's over 110 miles to leave the mouth of the Rosebud and travels to Custer's camp, scout the upper Tolluck, and meet the Far West on 24 JUN near the junction of Yellowstone and Big Horn.
Impossible comes to mind.
Even if he rides the 12 miles to Custer's camp on the Rosebud and from there a straight line it is 61 miles.
Regards
Steve
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Post by herosrest on Jan 13, 2023 17:41:07 GMT -6
Within the text which I linked, Sellew was given as Sellow. There is some history to him www.findagrave.com/memorial/224720226/william-roland-sellew A descendant posted here briefly. A researcher here found records relevant to operations on the Yellowstone in 1876 indicating further mispelling of his name. He was employed by Miles of 5th Infantry in 1876 at TRB - Ft. Keogh. If you use the board search button and do the simplest search for Sellew this will hit a discussion about him. It was taken seriously then and should be now. The gist of the newspaper account is that Sellew was sent after 7th with the written instructions to Custer and arrived to the camp of 22/23 June. He then made two trips to the Yellowstone. He ended up at Powder river then as the Rees escaping the battle, arrived. It's all very loose and difficult and interconnected with a myriad of minutae which very few people have ever read let alone considered. Those who have their facts and battle nailed down will find it impossible. Having now looked at it and dug around it more than six years, it cannot be dismissed. Information from a private source in the possesion of an author and researcher who cannot be dismissed, confirms that Sellew arrived at the Far West on 24th June, 1876 and gave information about hostile presence in Tullocks Creek. The information was noted by John Carland in his diary. If you can figure out who Carland was then you will realise his information cannot be ignored. It can be argued. It can be mitigated. It is impossible to dismiss. Sellew arrived to the Far West on 7/24/1876. Can it be shown that he was with 7th Cavalry? Yes. William Jackson mentions him without reason for prejudice. Research on this board indicates he was misnamed as 'Slew' rather than Sellew. This is simply a heads up about some interesting new old stuff which that old chief of the Ventura tribe 'Many People' are quite happy to dismiss out of hand. It happened with Fred Eagner who just blew one of the battles best researchers out of the water in the way fred did - rest his soul. Take Sellew seriously whether acceptable or not. It's going large in the very, very, large way. Regards.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 13, 2023 18:40:58 GMT -6
The long and short of this is that orders were not followed. Herendeen was attached to Custer because he was familiar with this area and had been there two years before with another group and fought these same Sioux, several times. The only scouting of Tullocks was made at the southern end, by the Montana column. They found a recently arrowed buffalo and recent sign of a hunting party. Regards, Tom There were 149 men on the 1874 civilian expedition. I am still in wait mode for a 'complete' list of them. The expedition was reported quite some by press out there at Bozeman and at Ellis. Sellew was 20-21 then. It seems he was a shooter of some ability. I hope that he was with the expedition alongside Herendeen. There's if ands and buts, but, Herendeen knew the terrain. Sellew was sent to Custer after 7th Cavalry marched away from Terry and joined the regiment at the night camp of 22/23. Did he know the terrain as well as Herendeen. He did because he made a living travelling it and hunting in it. I don't have an axe to grind with Terry but neither Custer. Open mind. Reports did get back dated 23rd, I believe. I posted this wayback, and fred took a positive interest at the time..... on the hunt.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 14, 2023 6:43:09 GMT -6
It's over 110 miles to leave the mouth of the Rosebud and travels to Custer's camp, scout the upper Tolluck, and meet the Far West on 24 JUN near the junction of Yellowstone and Big Horn. Impossible comes to mind. Even if he rides the 12 miles to Custer's camp on the Rosebud and from there a straight line it is 61 miles. Regards Steve My understanding of Sewell's account is that he was sent off on the night of 22/23 June and told to stay east of Tullock. He either went looking for Far West on the river, or rode to Pease. If FT. Pease, the distance is around 45 miles. If it was the Far West then it was a lesser ride and the Engineering Officer's logs should help pin down the where. Sellew then states he returned to Custer's command which was moving at 28-33 miles per day. Sellew was then sent out again and reached the Far West on the 24th, after swimming the river. He then went on to Powder River Supply Depot. Question then is whether he went back to 7th Cavalry on Rosebud (Busby area), before going to Powder River where Brockmeyer was later killed. The distances are great. This is the work which mail and despatch riders did. Scouts as well and the jobs were ad hoc. It needs some thinking about but we know Taylor made the journey carrying stuff for Ellis and stopped off at Still Water (which one? ) because this was the way of it. Gibbon, Terry and Miles had difficulties with scouts and couriers who could not make it through, and tempted beyond their abilities by huge purses. Taylor was offered $2-300 to go 10 miles up LBH valley and find Custer on 26 June. He turned back and shielded with Roe since the valley was swarming with Sioux (according to him and Roe). Gibbon sent company strength scouts along the Yellowstone as far as Powder River if I recall. McClernand was diligent with his Engineering Officer's duties so the reports should help with time and distance when I can dig them out. A lone rider would of course move faster since that was the only advantage for them - I'd guess it was either travel by night or do endurance and cut time to minimum. It's a fascinating aspect of militaryness and the simple nuts and bolts of communication in hostile territory. I'm hooked for a while. Isaiah with 7th Cavalry had long carried mail, and numbers of the scouts under Varnum were running messages from the minute the regiment left FAL. I wonder if there's a book in it? From Terry considering and planning his hunt, right on down to the scouts and messengers risking all to 'g'it it done, boy!'. Added - Mar 20, 2015 at 4:53am - One of my finest posts Benteen disobeyed direct written orders to go to the Big Village. Simple Simon pure. He explained this to Terry on the 27th and gave the reasons for not doing it! The reason that Benteen didn't do it was because Reno was where he was, on a hill across from the valley 'he' had been sent to. If Reno had remained in the valley, Benteen would have gone to Reno - in the valley. Where he was ordered to go but Reno had moved elsewhere WITHOUT orders to do so. Reno had no orders to retreat. Benteen disobeyerd those given to him. Any decent and capable battlefield commander would have executed Reno and Benteen, on the spot. Here is an article dated to June 24th, published July 11th in New York Times. concerning Scouts from Gen. Terry (presumably travelled from Rosebud) at Powder River, which tells of Custer's HOT PURSUIT with twelve companies of Seventh Cavalry. Hmmm... Custer in hot pursuit and that stated one day before battle, by Terry's scouts, carrying messages one should assume. A moment of remembrance for Fox. query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A00E0DE123AE63BBC4952DFB166838D669FDEI wonder if at the time people realized how much newspapers would just make their stories out of thin air. Read some of the early stories about the Titanic that appeared in the press before they actually knew what happened. Beth The NY Times article has been re-indexed and my subscription lapsed. Drat.... more pennies. Oi, God..... This stuff isn't going to change the World or perceptions of what happened - war is hell and people enjoy that. However, the minutae are great and what else is there to chew over the main course.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 14, 2023 7:16:53 GMT -6
At least William R. Sellew was not thin air, or creating thin air. He was another Charley Reynolds and served Ft. Keogh well. How did he arrive to Terry on 22nd June 1876? I don't know if this will post, it being BBC UK. It popped out of knowhere, bing..... and made me smile. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50476008
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Post by herosrest on Jan 14, 2023 13:23:15 GMT -6
Mixed results - I should perhaps stop mixing Archers into my Guinesses. Didn't get a lot from M cClernand since the entire column marching tended to be what he recorded which is enough to string together distance along a heavy trail of march from Ft. Pease to Powder River, with wagons. That of course was not how despatches and mail were sent. However..... what if, Sellew travelled in a boat along the river. The boats which the army purchased from George Herendeen at Ft. Pease, were used to transport mail. At least one drowning occured. Ho hum. Anyways.... I did find out where the Far West was. Lt. Maguire recorded it all neatly in his chart. Mag Obs Chart. Now, if Bill Sellew left for Powder River from Ft. Pease then that 105 miles or so was going to murder his mount, although there may have been remounts along the way, for example at the mouth of the Rosebud, or not. Lt. M cClernand offers a solution for this route in the closing recommendation of his report. link The Mackinaw boats from Ft. Pease would swiftly get down to Maj. Moore's depot. That may be it. 50 or so miles back up Tullock into its east fork to Busby (Custer) and then maybe 110 miles cross country to the Tongue and on to the Powder to reach the Depot puts Sellew ahead of the pony stealers but is 160 miles or so in two days. He went by Mackinaw. The Yellowstone River has been thoroughly tested, and the trial has resulted in proving it navigable. The expenditure of a little money in removing the Wolf and Buffalo Rapids, and confining the water in one channel in several other places, would do away with all difficulty, from the 1st of June until the 1st of October, to a point near the mouth of the Big Horn. The facility with which it can be used for supplying its lower districts, by Mackinaw boats from Benson’s, at an expense immensely less than by wagon-trains, has also been proved this last summer.
E. J. McCLERNAND, Second Lieutenant Second Cavalry, Acting Engineer Oficer, District Montana.Looks like M cClernand got his own back on Maguire, who got the Wolf Rapid's job and spent several years undertaking it. Little steps, tiny steps.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 14, 2023 13:30:06 GMT -6
Nope - Gordie, Thanks for your details on the packers. In his story of the fight, as told to J.W. Schultz and published in Los Angeles Times on January 17, 1914, Billy Jackson says that in the night of June 24 he went to the packtrain’s camp and spent some time talking with an old friend, a civilian packer named William Sellew. There’s some trace in the records of this man? Or is Jackson (or Schultz) misrecollecting? Nope - Sellew went to Powder overland, in advance of the pony stealers. Hmmm.....
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Post by herosrest on Jan 14, 2023 13:38:41 GMT -6
HR If Herendeen had been sent, maybe Terry would not have lost so much time since he could show them a better route. In Terry's Order, the scout was to report on the upper end of Tullock's. Custer arrived and camped at Busby on the 24. There is a monument on the Cheyenne Reservation where he camped. What route would this Sellew have taken? He missed the upper part, or he was the worst scout ever. 10,000 Indians over the next ridge, and he didn't have a clue. He must have been friends with Muggins. Regards BE (AZ Ranger) Hi, it really has never been picked that the Crow's were out ahead at Busby and returned to the 7th Cavalry camp during the evening with information which decided Custer on his ride to hell. I have said that the command interest, Terry's intent, was for the route of Maynardier's march in 1859, to be looked over for presence or recent sign. Was it impossible that Sellew did this? No. I say this for one reason only. A confirmation that he reached Far West on the 24th, from an Officer guarding the boat. Whilst Billy Jackson and Billy Sellew might lose a day or two wandering the Plains, John Carland didn't. He was guarding the expedition's HQ. Despatches from 7th Cavalry, sent after they began their march, were published in early July in New York. Those messages arrived somehow from the march down the Rosebud to Little Bighorn. It comes down to what time on the 24th, that Sellew delivered them and what Carland stated about it. I put the content of the dispatched up way back for discussion and it was productive but inconclusive. I'll have to dig out the Dicotyledon Obtrusion topic posts. I've just remebered how I titled it. TVR - Page 162. Custer told us to go on ahead and see which way they went, and we came to where they had broken camp. We followed the trail until we saw that they had camped on the Little Horn, and then we noticed that the Sioux had gone toward the Little Horn and we waited at the head of Tallec Creek for the command to come up. The command did not come up, for they had camped on the Little Rosebud; and we went back to the camp. Then the scouts had an argument, and I went by myself and asked Custer what we should do. Custer asked me what I came back for. I told him that the trail of the Sioux had gone to the west, toward the Little Horn, and that I had come back for further orders. linkThe Mackinaw IncidentBlaque & Harpskiddie, I am related to William Roland Sellew and can give you info on him including where to find his letters. He was a scout for Miles in 1876. He missed the Custer battle (obviously) but says that he saw the battlefield shortly thereafter. I am interested in finding more information on him myself. Sue Sellew Vermont
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 15, 2023 12:00:59 GMT -6
HR, I just referred to "Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Gold, and Guns" by Col. French MacLean. Sellew, was not listed as a member of the 1874 expedition, he was not rostered. Your numbers and MacLean is pretty much match up. The fact that he served with Miles is certainly no guarantee that this tale is accurate. I still believe that the only scout of Tullocks was doe from the south, by scouts from the Montana column.
You know I respect your ability to research. I am am just not swayed.
Regards, Tom
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